2 Mics on a Cabinet

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by Funkybot, Aug 18, 2003.

  1. Funkybot

    Funkybot Guest

    Hey guys, I'm trying to record a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe (generally played with a
    lot of distortion through a Pro-co Rat or Big Muff) using a two mic setup, one
    being a 57 about two inches off the grill and another being a cheap Groove
    Tubes condenser (I know but it's all the band has available and I'm trying to
    get them set up with the best results out of their gear) about 5 feet back in
    front of the cab. Now the 57 track sounds fine, and exactly like a guitar amp
    recorded through a 57 should sound like, but I've never been a huge fan of the
    57 by itself and hence why I'm trying to work the GT mic. Now I like the sort
    of openess along with a bit of the room sound that the GT mic is getting me but
    it's really harsh as all hell, and since I'm going to end up mixing this
    project for the band, I don't want to spend half my time just EQing the hell
    out of the guitars. Does anyone have some suggestions as a location for this
    second mic that may help smooth it out a bit? I know it's a harsh mic and that
    first and foremost that is my biggest problem, but any other general rules of
    advice would be great. BTW when listening to the amp in the room is a bit
    harsh on it's own, so I've tweaked it (turning down the presence, and treb,
    etc) to tame that as best as I could, but it just seems this mic is just
    enhancing the harshness. Should I just stick to the SM57 by itself? try the GT
    off axis? a bit closer? further away? something behind the amp? I know
    there's no hard and fast rules to this but some general bits of info may help.
    Thanks.
  2. EganMedia

    EganMedia Guest

    > Does anyone have some suggestions as a location for this
    >second mic that may help smooth it out a bit?


    Have the guitarist play. While he's playing, have the drummer (or a sober band
    member if you'd rather) move the mic around. Have him move the other mic
    around too. Eventually you'll come up with the sound that is most like what
    you're looking for. The GT mics are not as bad as you make them out to be.
    The player, the guitar, and the amp are all just as likely to be deficient as
    the mic. Just keep experimenting. If you can't come up with a usable tone by
    moving the mic, swap out something else.


    Joe Egan
    EMP
    Colchester, VT
    www.eganmedia.com
  3. My Groove tube mic's are terrific mic's ( I have 4 flavors, 2 tube 2 fet,
    pre-Alesis) and I would not classify any of them as "cheap" or "harsh". I'm
    recording a tele through a twin mic'd with an MD 1a and it sounds beautiful. I
    also use the fet 5sc for guitars and that is beautiful too. Either it is a bad GT
    or the harshness may be somewhere else in the chain. I set the 1a maybe a foot
    out in front of the cab and the 57 on the edge of the cone. The 1a is the main
    source and I mix in the 57 to taste. Patric

    Funkybot wrote:

    > Hey guys, I'm trying to record a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe (generally played with a
    > lot of distortion through a Pro-co Rat or Big Muff) using a two mic setup, one
    > being a 57 about two inches off the grill and another being a cheap Groove
    > Tubes condenser (I know but it's all the band has available and I'm trying to
    > get them set up with the best results out of their gear) about 5 feet back in
    > front of the cab. Now the 57 track sounds fine, and exactly like a guitar amp
    > recorded through a 57 should sound like, but I've never been a huge fan of the
    > 57 by itself and hence why I'm trying to work the GT mic. Now I like the sort
    > of openess along with a bit of the room sound that the GT mic is getting me but
    > it's really harsh as all hell, and since I'm going to end up mixing this
    > project for the band, I don't want to spend half my time just EQing the hell
    > out of the guitars. Does anyone have some suggestions as a location for this
    > second mic that may help smooth it out a bit? I know it's a harsh mic and that
    > first and foremost that is my biggest problem, but any other general rules of
    > advice would be great. BTW when listening to the amp in the room is a bit
    > harsh on it's own, so I've tweaked it (turning down the presence, and treb,
    > etc) to tame that as best as I could, but it just seems this mic is just
    > enhancing the harshness. Should I just stick to the SM57 by itself? try the GT
    > off axis? a bit closer? further away? something behind the amp? I know
    > there's no hard and fast rules to this but some general bits of info may help.
    > Thanks.
  4. P Stamler

    P Stamler Guest

    Which GT mic are you using?

    Also, have you tried the old Sun Studios "face the amp into the corner" trick?

    Peace,
    Paul
  5. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <20030818164233.21195.00000216@mb-m13.aol.com> funkybot@aol.com writes:

    > I'm trying to record a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe (generally played with a
    > lot of distortion through a Pro-co Rat or Big Muff) using a two mic setup, one
    > being a 57 about two inches off the grill and another being a cheap Groove
    > Tubes condenser (I know but it's all the band has available and I'm trying to
    > get them set up with the best results out of their gear) about 5 feet back in
    > front of the cab.


    > I like the sort
    > of openess along with a bit of the room sound that the GT mic is getting me but
    > it's really harsh as all hell


    > Does anyone have some suggestions as a location for this
    > second mic that may help smooth it out a bit?


    The correct location is the place where it sounds best in the room.
    Walk around with one finger in your ear while the guitarist is playing
    and see if you can find one place where it sounds like what you want
    to hear. Put the mic there. If it never sounds great, then your room
    (or your taste) sucks. Try putting the amp in a different room. If it
    always sounds great in the room but never does through the mic, then
    your mic sucks. Apply Eq when you're tracking so that it sounds OK,
    and then you won't have fuss with it much when you're mixing. Better
    yet, blend the two mics to one track while you're tracking, and you'll
    have your guitar sound. If you can't get it now, you probably won't
    get it later.



    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  6. Carey Carlan

    Carey Carlan Guest

    mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote in news:znr1061245517k@trad:

    > The correct location is the place where it sounds best in the room.
    > Walk around with one finger in your ear while the guitarist is playing
    > and see if you can find one place where it sounds like what you want
    > to hear. Put the mic there. If it never sounds great, then your room
    > (or your taste) sucks. Try putting the amp in a different room. If it
    > always sounds great in the room but never does through the mic, then
    > your mic sucks. Apply Eq when you're tracking so that it sounds OK,
    > and then you won't have fuss with it much when you're mixing. Better
    > yet, blend the two mics to one track while you're tracking, and you'll
    > have your guitar sound. If you can't get it now, you probably won't
    > get it later.


    What he said.

    To add, the cabinet sound will dull as you move off axis in any direction.
    Pointing straight down from above or moving off to either side should mute
    the high end some.
  7. Inter Media

    Inter Media Guest

    mrivers@d-and-d.com (Mike Rivers) wrote:

    > If you can't get it now, you probably won't get it later.


    But, someone else (producer) might!

    Barney
  8. Ty Ford

    Ty Ford Guest

    In Article <20030818164233.21195.00000216@mb-m13.aol.com>, funkybot@aol.com
    (Funkybot) wrote:
    >Hey guys, I'm trying to record a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe (generally played with a
    >lot of distortion through a Pro-co Rat or Big Muff) using a two mic setup, one
    >being a 57 about two inches off the grill and another being a cheap Groove
    >Tubes condenser (I know but it's all the band has available and I'm trying to
    >get them set up with the best results out of their gear) about 5 feet back in
    >front of the cab. Now the 57 track sounds fine, and exactly like a guitar amp
    >recorded through a 57 should sound like, but I've never been a huge fan of the
    >57 by itself and hence why I'm trying to work the GT mic. Now I like the sort
    >of openess along with a bit of the room sound that the GT mic is getting me but
    >it's really harsh as all hell, and since I'm going to end up mixing this
    >project for the band, I don't want to spend half my time just EQing the hell
    >out of the guitars. Does anyone have some suggestions as a location for this
    >second mic that may help smooth it out a bit? I know it's a harsh mic and that
    >first and foremost that is my biggest problem, but any other general rules of
    >advice would be great. BTW when listening to the amp in the room is a bit
    >harsh on it's own, so I've tweaked it (turning down the presence, and treb,
    >etc) to tame that as best as I could, but it just seems this mic is just
    >enhancing the harshness. Should I just stick to the SM57 by itself? try the GT
    >off axis? a bit closer? further away? something behind the amp? I know
    >there's no hard and fast rules to this but some general bits of info may help.
    >Thanks.


    Dear FB,

    I'm not at all surprised. If you must use the GT try thinking about it as an
    effect; like delay or reverb or Aural Excitement. That means using a very
    small amount of it to put an edge on the SM57.

    BTW, not that it's an opition for you now, but for general discussion, I
    used a Gefell M900 and a Amek Neve 9098 Pre/EQ on a nasty guitar cabinet s
    number of years back and the combo turned the sound into something rich,
    creamy and sweet.

    I mentioned it a few months back and someone else (sorry don't remember)
    tried it and got similar results. We remain stunned at how different and how
    much better the cab sounded. This is as close to audio alchemy as I have
    ever heard.

    As you may know, I'm not much on overstating, but this was truly exceptional.

    Regards,

    Ty Ford


    For Ty Ford V/O demos, audio services and equipment reviews,
    click on http://www.jagunet.com/~tford
  9. Rob Adelman

    Rob Adelman Guest

    Ty Ford wrote:


    > BTW, not that it's an opition for you now, but for general discussion, I
    > used a Gefell M900 and a Amek Neve 9098 Pre/EQ on a nasty guitar cabinet s
    > number of years back and the combo turned the sound into something rich,
    > creamy and sweet.
    >
    > I mentioned it a few months back and someone else (sorry don't remember)
    > tried it and got similar results.


    Ty, that was me. It is a great combo, but I ended up just as happy with
    my M900 into my John Hardy and couldn't justify the cost of the Amek for
    one channel, so I sold it. However I wasn't using the eq on the Amek
    which is an excellent eq, so that certainly could add to the value for
    someone needing a pre/eq.

    b.t.w. the M900 does not have good rejection to the rear, which is a
    problem when I am recording the guitar live with the drums, but mostly
    the guitar is overdubbed so that is ok. Otherwise it is a wonderful
    sounding microphone on the guitar cab, highly recommended.

    -Rob
  10. Steve

    Steve Guest

    Generally, I would use the 57 all by itself. You did well by adjusting
    the amp so it sounds good. I don't like "room" mics that are only a
    few feet from the amp whilst having a "close" mic. Take the GT mic and
    point it at the reflecting wall. Don't point it at the amp. This way
    you will get plenty of the room and won't get that funky phasie sound
    with the second mic only a few feet away.

    If you really want to make the miking of the amp sound a little more
    distant, just use the 57 three to five feet away and forget the other
    mic. The dimension or distance does translate to the recording. So, if
    you want the guitar to sit a little farther back (in the mix), then
    put the mic back from the speaker. If you want in your face, stick it
    right on the speaker.

    Good luck
    Steve


    funkybot@aol.com (Funkybot) wrote in message news:<20030818164233.21195.00000216@mb-m13.aol.com>...
    > Hey guys, I'm trying to record a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe (generally played with a
    > lot of distortion through a Pro-co Rat or Big Muff) using a two mic setup, one
    > being a 57 about two inches off the grill and another being a cheap Groove
    > Tubes condenser (I know but it's all the band has available and I'm trying to
    > get them set up with the best results out of their gear) about 5 feet back in
    > front of the cab. Now the 57 track sounds fine, and exactly like a guitar amp
    > recorded through a 57 should sound like, but I've never been a huge fan of the
    > 57 by itself and hence why I'm trying to work the GT mic. Now I like the sort
    > of openess along with a bit of the room sound that the GT mic is getting me but
    > it's really harsh as all hell, and since I'm going to end up mixing this
    > project for the band, I don't want to spend half my time just EQing the hell
    > out of the guitars. Does anyone have some suggestions as a location for this
    > second mic that may help smooth it out a bit? I know it's a harsh mic and that
    > first and foremost that is my biggest problem, but any other general rules of
    > advice would be great. BTW when listening to the amp in the room is a bit
    > harsh on it's own, so I've tweaked it (turning down the presence, and treb,
    > etc) to tame that as best as I could, but it just seems this mic is just
    > enhancing the harshness. Should I just stick to the SM57 by itself? try the GT
    > off axis? a bit closer? further away? something behind the amp? I know
    > there's no hard and fast rules to this but some general bits of info may help.
    > Thanks.
  11. Outside423

    Outside423 Guest

    Hi! I have had similar experiences with this type of mic setup. Usually, i put
    the 57 at about 3:00, touching the grill on the left speaker, if you use a
    2x12, or wherever, then place the condenser(I have a GT 5SM) that you use 3-5"
    just to the left, and behind the shure. What's really important in getting a
    good amp sound is optimising your gain structure. Set levels on the 57LC as hot
    as possible without feedback---this mic is going to give you the raw speaker
    tone, whereas the groove tube should get the "amp" tone.
    When setting levels, do each mic separately, take your time and get each to
    sound great by themselves, then blend them together. You might have to roll off
    the bass on the GT, but you have the tools for a great sound. Experiment!
    Brian Muir, owner Inside Out Productions, LLC

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