_Brittle Power_ (Was "Re: Power outage")

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by LeBaron & Alrich, Aug 15, 2003.

  1. nmm

    nmm Guest

    On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 2:29 pm, Roger W. Norman
    <mailto:rnorman@starpower.net> wrote:
    > Can
    >anyone deny a march back towards America, Love It or Leave it? Do we
    >forget
    >the shame of castigating the Dixie Chicks or Susan Surrandon, Tim Robbins
    >or
    >Richard Jewel


    Historical revisionisim. I was watching CNN a few days ago and Larry King
    was interviewing Ann Coultier(SP?) who is the authour of books that
    describe Tailgunner Joe, the real one not our local one on RAP, as a 'good
    guy' and that ahe acted in the best intrests of America.

    The Mass media might as well start preaching Holocaust denial as actual
    history, It's no differant than rewriting the history of the McCarthy
    witchhunts.

    Have they No Shame?
  2. Rob Adelman

    Rob Adelman Guest

    nmm wrote:

    > was interviewing Ann Coultier(SP?) who is the authour of books that


    Right wing bable. She just loves to hear herself talk.
  3. ScotFraser

    ScotFraser Guest

    << You're not THAT old, are you? >>

    I figure I have 15 years to go before nobody will want to hire me anymore.

    Scott Fraser
  4. ScotFraser

    ScotFraser Guest

    << But your numbers are way
    low. >>

    I had heard the figure $20,000 to $30,000 to convert our place to solar.


    Scott Fraser
  5. ScotFraser

    ScotFraser Guest

    << Will your fricking house to your children

    (Huge snippage equivalent to several Russian novels)

    America was the place you built a future. Well, we're there
    and there hasn't been a whole lot of building going on lately. $10k or $15k for
    those that are building now is a lot less than a retro-fit.
    A retro-fit will still save you money. It only takes every homeowner to
    look at the figures and make a decision. Those that go for it will be
    energy self sufficient. It's really that simple. If you own something,
    then nobody can come take it away. >>


    So, as I said before in my post which you have constructed an epic monument
    upon "it won't pay for itself in savings within my lifetime, but would still be
    a good thing in general to do."


    Scott Fraser
  6. I dare say that, assuming the housing market doesn't end up taking a hit
    because of rising mortgage rates, an investment + tax credits (again, I'm
    suggesting huge tax credits) will ultimately end up giving one's home a
    higher market value. In some cases this could be one of the places where a
    tax credit could be used if property taxes are of concern. And it's obvious
    that not all homes would be worth the hassle, if we were just talking about
    solar, but the concept is to reduce daily costs whilst still retaining our
    creature comforts and not place additional burdens on an outdated system
    that probably won't really get anything done as an upgrade. Well, maybe if
    Bush deals out a whole lot of government money to bolster his power buddies'
    earnings without encumbering them with actually investing in the grid.

    And it would help stimulate a portion of the economy, which can't hurt. So
    it depends on how one views the effort and dollars. If it's just dollars
    then the investment isn't worth the effort. But what if the next power
    blackout is 20 days from now and takes out one entire grid? Or it happens 5
    years from now before we find out that nothing's been done? Or, worse yet,
    a power blackout comes from an assault by terrorists, either directly or via
    cyber terrorism?

    I dare say that all those small restaurants and delis and grocery stores
    that had to dispose of all their perishable foods and restock their shelves
    will be thinking long and hard about how much that cost vs the foresight to
    install an emergency generator/s. I was amazed that numerous hospitals
    didn't have emergency generators. That's inconceivable to me. It's obvious
    that we've become so used to having power that it's not even a topic of
    concern to take steps towards energy self sufficiency at any costs.

    Also, I'm still not hearing about any injuries, and that's just not
    possible. It appears that we are somewhat being bamboozled again because
    there's really NO BAD NEWS. In fact, about the only thing on the news is
    finger pointing and some "heroic" stories about what would otherwise be
    insignificant acts of kindness.

    In the meanwhile, we're not hearing much about the 5,000 French who've died
    from their heatwave problems. I know, different subject, but it's
    interesting that the news hasn't found so much death worth broadcasting in
    any detail. Just numbers, ho hum.

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "Rob Adelman" <radelman@mn.rr.com> wrote in message
    news:bhr7q9$2dcrn$1@ID-75267.news.uni-berlin.de...
    >
    >
    > ScotFraser wrote:
    >
    > > << At least most homes in the proper locations could be
    > > relatively self sufficient with some tax incentives from the government

    and
    > > allow more grid generated power be available to business. >>
    > >
    > > The city of Los Angeles will kick in 50% to help homeowners subsidize a

    solar
    > > retrofit, because they realize it's in the best interests of the city.

    It would
    > > still cost me about $10,000 to $15,000 to fully run off the sun, so it

    won't
    > > pay for itself in savings within my lifetime, but would still be a good

    thing
    > > in general to do.

    >
    > I think it is the state of California giving the rebate. My brother is
    > near San Diego and the state did pay for half. But your numbers are way
    > low. Granted he got a heavy duty system making his house 100% self
    > sufficient, but it was more like 80 grand. After the rebate that is
    > still 40 thousand. Seems like not such a good bargain, but he feels good
    > that he is doing something about the problem. Add on the savings to
    > operate his Toyota Rav 4 electric and he isn't doing to badly.
    >
  7. Well, if that's all you got out of it, yes, I guess I'd agree. But the
    concept wasn't that it would be a good thing to do in general. The concept
    is that it's something we must do in order to A) be less dependent upon the
    power pirates, and B) diversify our generation/transmission systems so that
    it's not vulnerable to some single point of failure attack. I guess both of
    those things are good to do, in general.

    But hey, I understand about dollars vs investments for minimal, if any,
    perceived benefits. It's one of the reasons I can't really do any
    remodeling within my house proper, because once I start, then I have to have
    all the electrical yanked out of plaster walls and ceilings in order to run
    new 12-2 cable (20 amp circuits). That's just the way of it with our
    inspection requirements within Montgomery County here in MD. And it would
    be kinda hard to do the shingle thing because our 12/12 pitched roof doesn't
    give much room to drop the panel wires down into the "attic" crawlspace our
    type of roof leaves. But that only ignores the fact that A) I need to redo
    the wiring anyway, since the older wiring's insulation is becoming brittle,
    and B) I have too good of a surface on my south facing roof to ignore the
    benefits of changing over to solar.

    It's a major type of decision for some while not even being in the equation
    for others.

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "ScotFraser" <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:20030819022353.06619.00000344@mb-m28.aol.com...
    > << Will your fricking house to your children
    >
    > (Huge snippage equivalent to several Russian novels)
    >
    > America was the place you built a future. Well, we're there
    > and there hasn't been a whole lot of building going on lately. $10k or

    $15k for
    > those that are building now is a lot less than a retro-fit.
    > A retro-fit will still save you money. It only takes every homeowner to
    > look at the figures and make a decision. Those that go for it will be
    > energy self sufficient. It's really that simple. If you own something,
    > then nobody can come take it away. >>
    >
    >
    > So, as I said before in my post which you have constructed an epic

    monument
    > upon "it won't pay for itself in savings within my lifetime, but would

    still be
    > a good thing in general to do."
    >
    >
    > Scott Fraser
  8. Rob Adelman

    Rob Adelman Guest

    ScotFraser wrote:

    > << But your numbers are way
    > low. >>
    >
    > I had heard the figure $20,000 to $30,000 to convert our place to solar.


    I think that means after the state's contribution of 50%.
  9. ScotFraser

    ScotFraser Guest

    << Well, if that's all you got out of it, yes, I guess I'd agree. >>

    You were taking me to task for thinking it's not worth it to buy energy
    independence if I can't make the numbers work right, & I was saying, in
    conclusion, even if I can't come out ahead money-wise, it's STILL a good thing
    to do.

    << But the
    concept wasn't that it would be a good thing to do in general. The concept
    is that it's something we must do in order to A) be less dependent upon the
    power pirates, and B) diversify our generation/transmission systems so that
    it's not vulnerable to some single point of failure attack. I guess both of
    those things are good to do, in general.
    >>


    Specifically, those two reasons are good reasons, generally speaking.

    Scott Fraser
  10. ScotFraser wrote:
    >
    >> $10k or $15k for
    >> those that are building now is a lot less than a retro-fit.
    >> A retro-fit will still save you money. It only takes every homeowner to
    >> look at the figures and make a decision. Those that go for it will be
    >> energy self sufficient. It's really that simple. If you own something,
    >> then nobody can come take it away.

    >
    >
    > So, as I said before in my post which you have constructed an epic monument
    > upon "it won't pay for itself in savings within my lifetime, but would still be
    > a good thing in general to do."


    As long as electric rates stay the same over that lifetime, a rather
    dubious assumption IMO.

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