Best all around PA speaker?

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by Mark Finley, Aug 12, 2003.

  1. Mark Finley

    Mark Finley Guest

    I need a speaker recommendation that will wok well in a situation that does
    not use a Subwoofer. Bass response and clarity is important to me, but
    unfortunately, I have to do without a sub for reasons too complicated to go
    into. I was looking at the JBL 4725XF (flyable) and the MP415. Anybody
    have any experience with either of these, or something similar? I would like
    to stay under $2500 for the pair.

    Mark
  2. "Mark Finley" <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
    news:tU1_a.97669$0v4.6720524@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
    > I need a speaker recommendation that will wok well in a situation that

    does
    > not use a Subwoofer. Bass response and clarity is important to me, but
    > unfortunately, I have to do without a sub for reasons too complicated to

    go
    > into. I was looking at the JBL 4725XF (flyable) and the MP415. Anybody
    > have any experience with either of these, or something similar? I would

    like
    > to stay under $2500 for the pair.
    >
    > Mark
    >

    Mark there are many speakers that will work
    from personal experiance I can recommend the
    LA 215 from eaw you will need to feed it at least 600 watts into each 8
    ohm box but they will do the job
    I am not a JBL fan I find thier speakers on the fragile side(not so much
    the drivers, but the cabinets, crossovers and general construction )
    George
  3. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    In article <tU1_a.97669$0v4.6720524@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
    Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
    >I need a speaker recommendation that will wok well in a situation that does
    >not use a Subwoofer. Bass response and clarity is important to me, but
    >unfortunately, I have to do without a sub for reasons too complicated to go
    >into. I was looking at the JBL 4725XF (flyable) and the MP415. Anybody
    >have any experience with either of these, or something similar? I would like
    >to stay under $2500 for the pair.


    For what music in what rooms?
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  4. Mark Finley

    Mark Finley Guest

    Modern praise and worship music with e-drums, bass, guitar, ect...
    The seating area of the room is 43 by 53 with a 16 foot vault that comes
    down to about 10 feet on the sides.
    Thanks for any advice you can give me.



    "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
    news:bhb0ed$b8$1@panix2.panix.com...
    > In article <tU1_a.97669$0v4.6720524@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
    > Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
    > >I need a speaker recommendation that will wok well in a situation that

    does
    > >not use a Subwoofer. Bass response and clarity is important to me, but
    > >unfortunately, I have to do without a sub for reasons too complicated to

    go
    > >into. I was looking at the JBL 4725XF (flyable) and the MP415. Anybody
    > >have any experience with either of these, or something similar? I would

    like
    > >to stay under $2500 for the pair.

    >
    > For what music in what rooms?
    > --scott
    > --
    > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  5. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
    >Modern praise and worship music with e-drums, bass, guitar, ect...


    Okay, so you need good low end because you're putting the drums and bass
    into the main PA. Can you avoid that at all?

    >The seating area of the room is 43 by 53 with a 16 foot vault that comes
    >down to about 10 feet on the sides.


    This is pretty small. Why are you running bass and guitar through the mains
    at all? They should be fine all by themselves in a room this size.

    What's the RT60 of the room? If it's that live a room, it may start to sound
    boxy. If it's a dry enough room, though, you could use a wide dispersion
    system.

    >Thanks for any advice you can give me.


    Get the system to match the room. The less you run through the PA system,
    the better. A system that can give you natural-sounding vocals should be
    a good first goal.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  6. On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:36:33 GMT, "Mark Finley"
    <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

    >The seating area of the room is 43 by 53 with a 16 foot vault that comes
    >down to about 10 feet on the sides.


    Also, any comments about speaker placement would be
    very valuable. How reverberant is the room?

    Chris Hornbeck
    didn't make the top 40
  7. Rick

    Rick Guest

    Mark Finley wrote:
    >
    > Modern praise and worship music with e-drums, bass, guitar, ect...
    > The seating area of the room is 43 by 53 with a 16 foot vault that comes
    > down to about 10 feet on the sides.
    > Thanks for any advice you can give me.



    Screw all that and get a pipe organ and an organist. That's much cooler.
  8. Mark Finley

    Mark Finley Guest

    There aren't any amps on stage by design. It give the person operating the
    sound the control over the blend. The e-drums are a must because of the
    small room. Acoustic drums are way too loud.

    I don't know the exact RT60 of the room because the engineer hasn't taken
    the measurements, It's a pretty live room, with all parallel walls.

    Mark


    "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
    news:bhb94a$2hb$1@panix2.panix.com...
    > Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
    > >Modern praise and worship music with e-drums, bass, guitar, ect...

    >
    > Okay, so you need good low end because you're putting the drums and bass
    > into the main PA. Can you avoid that at all?
    >
    > >The seating area of the room is 43 by 53 with a 16 foot vault that comes
    > >down to about 10 feet on the sides.

    >
    > This is pretty small. Why are you running bass and guitar through the

    mains
    > at all? They should be fine all by themselves in a room this size.
    >
    > What's the RT60 of the room? If it's that live a room, it may start to

    sound
    > boxy. If it's a dry enough room, though, you could use a wide dispersion
    > system.
    >
    > >Thanks for any advice you can give me.

    >
    > Get the system to match the room. The less you run through the PA system,
    > the better. A system that can give you natural-sounding vocals should be
    > a good first goal.
    > --scott
    >
    > --
    > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  9. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
    >There aren't any amps on stage by design. It give the person operating the
    >sound the control over the blend. The e-drums are a must because of the
    >small room. Acoustic drums are way too loud.


    If you do this, you don't get any of the sense of depth that you get from
    live stuff on stage, and you're stuck with a much larger and more expensive
    PA system, plus a lot heavier monitor rig.

    If you don't trust the musicians to keep their levels right, running
    their rigs through the PA does not sound like a solution to me.

    >I don't know the exact RT60 of the room because the engineer hasn't taken
    >the measurements, It's a pretty live room, with all parallel walls.


    So, clap your hands and listen. Fire off a starter's pistol and count.
    No sophisticated equipment needed. But if it's a live room, especially
    if it's live on the top end, you might gain more from room treatment
    than anything else.

    You might look into something like the SLS speaker systems, which will
    let you get more of the sound at the audience and less of it onto the
    walls, but frankly this whole thing sounds fundamentally flawed.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  10. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <Bpd_a.96269$3o3.6689742@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net writes:

    > There aren't any amps on stage by design. It give the person operating the
    > sound the control over the blend.


    However this takes any control of tone away from the player. It's OK
    for acoustic guitars with pickups, but if they're real electric
    guitars, you're going to be missing a lot. Maybe that's a good thing
    for your music. I don't know. I once did a folk music tour which had
    an act with an electric guitar and and electric bass, and the promoted
    (who really would have rather had them play acoustic even though that
    didn't fit with the music at all) didn't carry amplifiers, and
    insisted that we run the electric instruments direct and give them as
    much level as they wanted in the monitors. Neither the players, the
    monitors, or the house engineer (me) was very happy.

    > The e-drums are a must because of the
    > small room. Acoustic drums are way too loud.


    They don't have to be. That depends on the drummer, but at least you
    can turn down e-drums.

    > I don't know the exact RT60 of the room because the engineer hasn't taken
    > the measurements, It's a pretty live room, with all parallel walls.


    I think Scott has good advice. Get some small amplifiers, get a
    drummer who can control himself, and just run the vocals, acoustic
    instruments, and maybe small percussion through the PA. It's a small
    room. If you amplifiy too much, it will drive everyone out. And if you
    choke up electric instruments, they'll never sound good.



    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  11. Sounds to me that you'd be best of getting a pair of active Mackie's or JBL
    EONs or Mackie Industrials ART300A There are also other similar products in
    this category.

    If you can use a little more money Meyer Sound UPA-1A is great, but you will
    need to have the USW-1 sub aswell.

    Ruben.
  12. the jlb eons are JUNK.
    vk
  13. Mark Finley

    Mark Finley Guest

    we only use acoustic guitars, everybody knows electric guitars are the tool
    of the devil. ;-) JK
    "get a new drummer" how many 200 member churches do you know that have had
    a Piano, keyboard, bass, 2 guitar players, a drummer, and 6 or 7 singers
    that rotate out? We are fortunate to have 1 talented drummer, and that set
    is just too loud for the room.

    Mark



    "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
    news:znr1060736105k@trad...
    >
    > In article <Bpd_a.96269$3o3.6689742@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

    markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net writes:
    >
    > > There aren't any amps on stage by design. It give the person operating

    the
    > > sound the control over the blend.

    >
    > However this takes any control of tone away from the player. It's OK
    > for acoustic guitars with pickups, but if they're real electric
    > guitars, you're going to be missing a lot. Maybe that's a good thing
    > for your music. I don't know. I once did a folk music tour which had
    > an act with an electric guitar and and electric bass, and the promoted
    > (who really would have rather had them play acoustic even though that
    > didn't fit with the music at all) didn't carry amplifiers, and
    > insisted that we run the electric instruments direct and give them as
    > much level as they wanted in the monitors. Neither the players, the
    > monitors, or the house engineer (me) was very happy.
    >
    > > The e-drums are a must because of the
    > > small room. Acoustic drums are way too loud.

    >
    > They don't have to be. That depends on the drummer, but at least you
    > can turn down e-drums.
    >
    > > I don't know the exact RT60 of the room because the engineer hasn't

    taken
    > > the measurements, It's a pretty live room, with all parallel walls.

    >
    > I think Scott has good advice. Get some small amplifiers, get a
    > drummer who can control himself, and just run the vocals, acoustic
    > instruments, and maybe small percussion through the PA. It's a small
    > room. If you amplifiy too much, it will drive everyone out. And if you
    > choke up electric instruments, they'll never sound good.
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  14. in article tU1_a.97669$0v4.6720524@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, Mark
    Finley at markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net wrote on 8/12/03 1:51 AM:

    > I need a speaker recommendation that will wok well in a situation that does
    > not use a Subwoofer. Bass response and clarity is important to me, but
    > unfortunately, I have to do without a sub for reasons too complicated to go
    > into. I was looking at the JBL 4725XF (flyable) and the MP415. Anybody
    > have any experience with either of these, or something similar? I would like
    > to stay under $2500 for the pair.
    >
    > Mark
    >
    >
    >


    Daedalus 1203 or 823.

    See www.daedalusmusic.com
    --
    Stephen T. Boyke
  15. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
    >we only use acoustic guitars, everybody knows electric guitars are the tool
    >of the devil. ;-) JK


    Okay, that makes your life a lot easier, since you are still getting some
    direct sound off the stage. If you can keep your overall levels down, you
    won't need that much in the PA.

    The bass is much more of a problem.

    >"get a new drummer" how many 200 member churches do you know that have had
    >a Piano, keyboard, bass, 2 guitar players, a drummer, and 6 or 7 singers
    >that rotate out? We are fortunate to have 1 talented drummer, and that set
    >is just too loud for the room.


    Try a different set. Try brushes. I know, drummers don't like brushes
    these days, but it's amazing with a good drummer can do with them.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  16. Mark Finley

    Mark Finley Guest

    Hey! I'm the bass player! What do you mean, much more of a problem? I
    used to use a amp on stage as a personal monitor, but I went to a headphone
    monitor and left the amp at home and everything has been much easier to
    control since then.
    Brushes won't work with modern Praide and worship music. I't's very rock
    like. We're not talking about the kind of christian music they played 15
    years ago. The wound has to be a rock style, but with controlled dynamics,
    and that why we are going the e-set.


    Mark


    Mark
    "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
    news:bhg5pr$skv$1@panix2.panix.com...
    > Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
    > >we only use acoustic guitars, everybody knows electric guitars are the

    tool
    > >of the devil. ;-) JK

    >
    > Okay, that makes your life a lot easier, since you are still getting some
    > direct sound off the stage. If you can keep your overall levels down, you
    > won't need that much in the PA.
    >
    > The bass is much more of a problem.
    >
    > >"get a new drummer" how many 200 member churches do you know that have

    had
    > >a Piano, keyboard, bass, 2 guitar players, a drummer, and 6 or 7 singers
    > >that rotate out? We are fortunate to have 1 talented drummer, and that

    set
    > >is just too loud for the room.

    >
    > Try a different set. Try brushes. I know, drummers don't like brushes
    > these days, but it's amazing with a good drummer can do with them.
    > --scott
    > --
    > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  17. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
    >Hey! I'm the bass player! What do you mean, much more of a problem? I
    >used to use a amp on stage as a personal monitor, but I went to a headphone
    >monitor and left the amp at home and everything has been much easier to
    >control since then.


    Because it's hard to get good tone through a PA system. You probably
    can't tell since you're listening to the headphones. It also means the PA
    system now needs to go down several octaves lower than it otherwise would,
    which makes it a lot more expensive and harder to tune right.

    >Brushes won't work with modern Praide and worship music. I't's very rock
    >like. We're not talking about the kind of christian music they played 15
    >years ago. The wound has to be a rock style, but with controlled dynamics,
    >and that why we are going the e-set.


    You'd be surprised what you can do with brushes. I think there might be
    a sample on the r.a.p CD collection. But those are just a few suggestions
    for bringing the overall levels on the kit down. Drums don't have to be
    loud.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  18. I guess it depends, Scott. Some people aren't used to a drummer that can
    play quietly. Sometimes I have a hard time getting them into the mix from
    the live shows. I had Chuck Redd give me a hard time because he didn't want
    his drums that much into the FOH, but I just turned down his monitor and he
    didn't mention it again for the rest of the night! <g> I don't know why
    people think that drummers only play at 120 dB. Maybe if some of them would
    lay off the 2B sticks turned around they could play a little quieter. And
    in a room that size a 20" or even 18" kick would be fine.

    Those bundles of little dowl rods makes for a quiet play for a beater. Kick
    mufflers work. Finding cymbals that don't have a long range build up of
    overtones allows more clean and concise playing in smaller venues.

    The last thing I'd try is electronic drums, but then it's not me.

    As far as the size room and the complement of players, I'd take my Mackie
    SR1530s in there in a minute. They work pretty darned well for most of the
    venues I've used them in, and I can't think of a time we've actually had to
    EQ the speakers down to put on a show. In the sense that you and I do SR,
    I'd have to say that shooting for as much music from the stage and as little
    as one could get by with in the FOH setup would fit that sized room/number
    of people just fine. Anything else is way overkill.

    I'd rather see my setups work with just enough monitoring that everyone can
    still manage their balance and work with it, and enough going out to the FOH
    so that it seemed like the band was closer and more audible without actually
    KNOWING that anything was coming from speakers. If you look at a box
    because you know sound is coming out of it, then something's wrong. Again,
    within the particulars of specific sized rooms. I don't profess to having
    ever done live sound for more than maybe 5,000 people, so in comparison
    people like George Gleason might well disagree with me. And I've done
    outdoor sound for 5,000 people also, and that's a totally different beast.

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
    news:bhg5pr$skv$1@panix2.panix.com...
    > Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
    > >we only use acoustic guitars, everybody knows electric guitars are the

    tool
    > >of the devil. ;-) JK

    >
    > Okay, that makes your life a lot easier, since you are still getting some
    > direct sound off the stage. If you can keep your overall levels down, you
    > won't need that much in the PA.
    >
    > The bass is much more of a problem.
    >
    > >"get a new drummer" how many 200 member churches do you know that have

    had
    > >a Piano, keyboard, bass, 2 guitar players, a drummer, and 6 or 7 singers
    > >that rotate out? We are fortunate to have 1 talented drummer, and that

    set
    > >is just too loud for the room.

    >
    > Try a different set. Try brushes. I know, drummers don't like brushes
    > these days, but it's amazing with a good drummer can do with them.
    > --scott
    > --
    > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  19. As long as your congregation likes what you do, then Scott's still giving
    you some of the right information in as much as it's much harder to get bass
    out of speakers without stepping into another price bracket. In an earlier
    message I just mentioned the Mackie SR1530s, which are quite nice for this
    type of venue, and they are pretty wide, so with proper placement you could
    get plenty of sound into the room. But I can tell you, uprights, for
    instance, don't have the same sound as the actual instrument does. In
    electrics it's even more exhasperated because of the tonal choices players
    make, fret noise, string noise, etc. It might make more sense to use an
    amp, get the tonal varieties you want, and put a decent mic in front of the
    amp for a little boost on the FOH, but you shouldn't need all your bass
    coming from the speakers because they aren't going to sound like what you're
    hearing. Of course, a good FOH engineer should be able to give you
    something, but there's a major difference with bass coming from FOH speakers
    of this range, and bass coming off the stage with an amp.

    As far as a kit, I don't know of any drummers that aren't pretty much into
    some types of experimental music that use electronic kits. They don't play
    right, the don't respond right, they just aren't a drummer's friend unless
    that's what the drummer knows. But the real problem here is dynamics. If
    one is relegated to play electronic drums then on is subject to the
    limitations of that set and it's electronics. Even with 256 steps of
    dynamics, there are no nuances of drumming that can take place like on a
    real trap set. I believe this is what Scott was referring to. Believe me,
    there's not a loud set of drums out there. There are ONLY LOUD DRUMMERS.
    If your drummer can't play quietly, then electronic drums lean in his favor,
    not the sound's favor.

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "Mark Finley" <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
    news:j2Q_a.100427$0v4.6941687@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
    > Hey! I'm the bass player! What do you mean, much more of a problem? I
    > used to use a amp on stage as a personal monitor, but I went to a

    headphone
    > monitor and left the amp at home and everything has been much easier to
    > control since then.
    > Brushes won't work with modern Praide and worship music. I't's very rock
    > like. We're not talking about the kind of christian music they played 15
    > years ago. The wound has to be a rock style, but with controlled dynamics,
    > and that why we are going the e-set.
    >
    >
    > Mark
    >
    >
    > Mark
    > "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
    > news:bhg5pr$skv$1@panix2.panix.com...
    > > Mark Finley <markandterryfinley@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
    > > >we only use acoustic guitars, everybody knows electric guitars are the

    > tool
    > > >of the devil. ;-) JK

    > >
    > > Okay, that makes your life a lot easier, since you are still getting

    some
    > > direct sound off the stage. If you can keep your overall levels down,

    you
    > > won't need that much in the PA.
    > >
    > > The bass is much more of a problem.
    > >
    > > >"get a new drummer" how many 200 member churches do you know that have

    > had
    > > >a Piano, keyboard, bass, 2 guitar players, a drummer, and 6 or 7

    singers
    > > >that rotate out? We are fortunate to have 1 talented drummer, and that

    > set
    > > >is just too loud for the room.

    > >
    > > Try a different set. Try brushes. I know, drummers don't like brushes
    > > these days, but it's amazing with a good drummer can do with them.
    > > --scott
    > > --
    > > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

    >
    >
  20. .. I don't profess to having
    > ever done live sound for more than maybe 5,000 people, so in comparison
    > people like George Gleason might well disagree with me. And I've done
    > outdoor sound for 5,000 people also, and that's a totally different beast.
    >


    My goal is to make the sound system invisible
    I do this with controlled volume, both foh and stage
    and realistic panning, I do not try to give every seat the same experiance,
    I try to make every seat sound correct for what they are seeing from that
    position
    that is the french horns ARE quieter in the stage right stack and the
    violins are quieter in the stage left stack
    the audio must follow the visual or your brain gets worn out processing two
    conflicting inputs
    George
    > --
    >
    >

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