CD writing speed? and audio quality...

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by James Perrett, Aug 15, 2003.

  1. Om_Audio

    Om_Audio Guest

    I use a Yamaha ide burner that has a nifty "audio master" mode which is a 1x
    variant:

    http://www.cdrlabs.com/articles/index.php?articleid=16

    http://www.yamahamultimedia.com/yec/tech/am_01.asp

    Om

    "Linus" <support@tuerkmusic.co.za> wrote in message
    news:bhidbl$5tk$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
    > Hello ...
    >
    > A potentially stupid question:
    >
    > Is it still important with the current crop of CDRW drives on the market

    to
    > write cds at single speed for the best audio quality?
    >
    > Or is the question pointless on account of CDRW drive quality being poor
    > regardless of speed ...
    >
    > does anyone have the lowdown on this subject?
    >
    > Regards
    >
    > Linus
    >
    >
    >
    >
  2. Troy

    Troy Guest

    Some very good reading.It also backs up what I have been saying about faster
    is not better.


    Om_Audio <clifsound@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:_9n%a.125163$cF.33797@rwcrnsc53...
    > I use a Yamaha ide burner that has a nifty "audio master" mode which is a

    1x
    > variant:
    >
    > http://www.cdrlabs.com/articles/index.php?articleid=16
    >
    > http://www.yamahamultimedia.com/yec/tech/am_01.asp
    >
    > Om
    >
    > "Linus" <support@tuerkmusic.co.za> wrote in message
    > news:bhidbl$5tk$1@ctb-nnrp2.saix.net...
    > > Hello ...
    > >
    > > A potentially stupid question:
    > >
    > > Is it still important with the current crop of CDRW drives on the market

    > to
    > > write cds at single speed for the best audio quality?
    > >
    > > Or is the question pointless on account of CDRW drive quality being

    poor
    > > regardless of speed ...
    > >
    > > does anyone have the lowdown on this subject?
    > >
    > > Regards
    > >
    > > Linus
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
  3. >I run a CD Duplication business and I am in contact with many others that do
    >the same.We have all done our own testing and we all find the same problems
    >with high speed burning.The average guy burning CDs on his computer is not
    >going to see the affects of speed like we do.We burn thousands of CDs a
    >month.Even the best quality CDs have a hard time and it has alot to do with
    >the low prices of CDs.Alot of these companies really stretch the process and
    >supplies to make ends meet and the technology still isen't perfect.Its very
    >costly for quality control of CDs.A good source is Tape & Disc magazine.You
    >can throw out all the specs you want on all the burners but most companies
    >do the testing under perfect conditions and in the real world things are
    >alot different.


    Great! An expert!
    So, tell us. What media, what speed?
  4. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <e6a68193.0308151653.2edef379@posting.google.com> DSatz@msn.com writes:

    > Unfortunately the current generation of very high speed blanks (32X and
    > higher) has created a new set of problems for older burners. It may be
    > advisable to choose blanks which specifically _don't_ support very high
    > speed recording, even when you intend to record at the very lowest speeds.


    They're getting hard to find these days. It's the way of computer
    stuff.

    Any reliable sources?


    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  5. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <20030816031528.06235.00001632@mb-m03.aol.com> larrysb@aol.commode writes:

    > What it all boils down to is you got to figure out what media works best in
    > your drive at what particular speed. Unfortunately, without equipment, all you
    > can do is burn some samples and see how they do.


    > Stick with a brand of drive you've heard of and find some media that works well
    > with it and buy a bunch of it.


    Burning test samples is no problem, but listening to them to see if
    there are any problems is too much trouble for most people. You can
    burn while doing something else, but you have to actually listen in
    real time and concentrate on what you're hearing to be sure that it
    worked. An error report number from a test program may not relate to
    actual performance.

    One you find a brand that works, you need to immediately buy several
    thousand to be sure that you'll have them when you need them. Go back
    to the store for the same brand name and speed in a couple of weeks
    and chances are very good that either they won't have it (and never
    will again) or that there's a package that's identical, but what's
    inside is actually different.




    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

  6. >Stick with a brand of drive you've heard of and find some media that works well
    >with it and buy a bunch of it.
    >
    >If you just got to pick something, pick 4x.


    Indeed.
    My advice has always been the same. Keep the speed moderate.
    Hopefully you won't get offered 1X, 2X if the media isn't suited to
    these low speeds. But choose from the low range of what's offered.

    Then, yesterday, I installed a new Sony CD-RW drive for a client. We
    burnt a disk at 4X which wouldn't play in ant audio player I could
    find. Then tried at 20X - perfect.

    Not that one disk proves anything :=)
  7. EggHd

    EggHd Guest

    I am having good luck with the maxell 650 meg CDRs that I was getting at
    Staples with my old trusty Que Fire 8X. I have about 150 left and just bought
    a new 100 (for 12 bucks) but they are now silver. The look better but I
    haven't opened them yet.

    The first Maxell that worked well with my burner were "certifed for 16X speeds.
    I have still have a handful of those. I also have a bunch of 40X Maxells
    which also seem to work well with my burner.

    The new silver ones are 48X "rated"

    I had posted this before but I recently burned some masters for the EMI plant
    using apogee CDs and one got rejected due to "too thin coating causing errors".
    I never heard that before. I resent one of the 16x Maxells.




    ---------------------------------------
    "I know enough to know I don't know enough"

  8. >Burning test samples is no problem, but listening to them to see if
    >there are any problems is too much trouble for most people. You can
    >burn while doing something else, but you have to actually listen in
    >real time and concentrate on what you're hearing to be sure that it
    >worked. An error report number from a test program may not relate to
    >actual performance.


    I've found it advisable to turn off Buffer Under-run protection
    (BURN-proof) when it's offered. The burn process would continue after
    an error, but it seemed to put a glitch into an audio CD.

    Or maybe those clicks were coming from somewhere else. I don't burn
    hundreds of CDs and haven't tested thoroughly. But, since turning off
    BURN-proof on a couple of machines, I've had a couple of coasters but
    no disks returned because of glitches.
  9. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    EggHd <egghd@aol.com> wrote:
    >I had posted this before but I recently burned some masters for the EMI plant
    >using apogee CDs and one got rejected due to "too thin coating causing errors".
    > I never heard that before. I resent one of the 16x Maxells.


    More and more of these higher speed discs are coming out, and while they
    can be written very quickly, they tend to have very high error rates no
    matter what speed they are written on. Just not acceptable for audio
    use. The problem is that it's hard to tell WHAT you are buying until you
    get it home and actually measure error rates.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  10. EggHd

    EggHd Guest

    << The problem is that it's hard to tell WHAT you are buying until you
    get it home and actually measure error rates. >>

    And I haven't found a Mac program to mesure error rates.



    ---------------------------------------
    "I know enough to know I don't know enough"
  11. Luke Kaven

    Luke Kaven Guest

    "Om_Audio" <clifsound@hotmail.com> wrote:

    >I use a Yamaha ide burner that has a nifty "audio master" mode which is a 1x
    >variant:
    >
    >http://www.cdrlabs.com/articles/index.php?articleid=16
    >
    >http://www.yamahamultimedia.com/yec/tech/am_01.asp
    >
    >Om


    It isn't a 1X variant according to the text on those sites:

    "Yamaha decided to deal with this by creating a process they called
    Audio Master. They decided to artificially slow down the speed of
    burning by increasing the length of the pits and lands. Although the
    disc is still spinning at its 24x or 32x speed, the density of bits on
    the CD's goes down. The normal 1.2 m/s linear speed turns into 1.4
    m/s. 74 minute discs suddenly only hold 63 minutes, and 80 minute
    discs now only hold 68 minutes due to the extended pit length.
    Although the feature sizes are increased, they're still within Red
    Book standards. Now the reader's laser has more room with which to
    sample and determine if it's actually looking at a pit or a land."
  12. Troy

    Troy Guest

    This is why you should buy Grade A duplicator quality CDs.Don't buy the CRAP
    from the stores most of it is garbage.


    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
    news:bhlmm4$apv$1@panix2.panix.com...
    > EggHd <egghd@aol.com> wrote:
    > >I had posted this before but I recently burned some masters for the EMI

    plant
    > >using apogee CDs and one got rejected due to "too thin coating causing

    errors".
    > > I never heard that before. I resent one of the 16x Maxells.

    >
    > More and more of these higher speed discs are coming out, and while they
    > can be written very quickly, they tend to have very high error rates no
    > matter what speed they are written on. Just not acceptable for audio
    > use. The problem is that it's hard to tell WHAT you are buying until you
    > get it home and actually measure error rates.
    > --scott
    > --
    > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  13. Troy

    Troy Guest

    Yes this is true.....always turn off the buffer under run.It causes problems
    with playback on CD players.


    Laurence Payne <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:gbmsjvsksf850sjqttk6fl40mcbi72l1vs@4ax.com...
    >
    > >Burning test samples is no problem, but listening to them to see if
    > >there are any problems is too much trouble for most people. You can
    > >burn while doing something else, but you have to actually listen in
    > >real time and concentrate on what you're hearing to be sure that it
    > >worked. An error report number from a test program may not relate to
    > >actual performance.

    >
    > I've found it advisable to turn off Buffer Under-run protection
    > (BURN-proof) when it's offered. The burn process would continue after
    > an error, but it seemed to put a glitch into an audio CD.
    >
    > Or maybe those clicks were coming from somewhere else. I don't burn
    > hundreds of CDs and haven't tested thoroughly. But, since turning off
    > BURN-proof on a couple of machines, I've had a couple of coasters but
    > no disks returned because of glitches.
  14. Troy

    Troy Guest

    Its kind of like running a real to real at 15 ips or 30 ips.You get less
    time on the CD.


    Luke Kaven <luke@smallsrecords.com> wrote in message
    news:u20tjv41q2k0ck0572kq0alei8v620s9p3@4ax.com...
    > "Om_Audio" <clifsound@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >
    > >I use a Yamaha ide burner that has a nifty "audio master" mode which is a

    1x
    > >variant:
    > >
    > >http://www.cdrlabs.com/articles/index.php?articleid=16
    > >
    > >http://www.yamahamultimedia.com/yec/tech/am_01.asp
    > >
    > >Om

    >
    > It isn't a 1X variant according to the text on those sites:
    >
    > "Yamaha decided to deal with this by creating a process they called
    > Audio Master. They decided to artificially slow down the speed of
    > burning by increasing the length of the pits and lands. Although the
    > disc is still spinning at its 24x or 32x speed, the density of bits on
    > the CD's goes down. The normal 1.2 m/s linear speed turns into 1.4
    > m/s. 74 minute discs suddenly only hold 63 minutes, and 80 minute
    > discs now only hold 68 minutes due to the extended pit length.
    > Although the feature sizes are increased, they're still within Red
    > Book standards. Now the reader's laser has more room with which to
    > sample and determine if it's actually looking at a pit or a land."
    >
    >
  15. Troy

    Troy Guest

    OK

    Here you go:

    We use Plextor,Teac, and smart drive 2 in our machines.

    I recomend these 3 burners.

    Recomended media (that should work in any burner)

    Duplicator Grade A CDs (with a white thermal top for added protection).

    Mistsui,Taiyo Yuden,Ritek (Diamond Silver),Prodisc (diamond silver).All
    these CDs work good at 1X with no problems.We have also had good luck with
    some of the CMC CDs also.

    Buy them by the case Mitsui and Taiyo Yuden come in cases of 600 and Ritek
    and Prodisc come in cases of 500

    For mastering I recomend HHB gold or silver CDs,Kodak infoguard ,but I would
    go with the HHBs as my first choice.






    Laurence Payne <l@laurenceDELETEpayne.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:lresjvcuusub0pld84478j3gfkt60bho8b@4ax.com...
    > >I run a CD Duplication business and I am in contact with many others that

    do
    > >the same.We have all done our own testing and we all find the same

    problems
    > >with high speed burning.The average guy burning CDs on his computer is

    not
    > >going to see the affects of speed like we do.We burn thousands of CDs a
    > >month.Even the best quality CDs have a hard time and it has alot to do

    with
    > >the low prices of CDs.Alot of these companies really stretch the process

    and
    > >supplies to make ends meet and the technology still isen't perfect.Its

    very
    > >costly for quality control of CDs.A good source is Tape & Disc

    magazine.You
    > >can throw out all the specs you want on all the burners but most

    companies
    > >do the testing under perfect conditions and in the real world things are
    > >alot different.

    >
    > Great! An expert!
    > So, tell us. What media, what speed?
  16. Bob Olhsson

    Bob Olhsson Guest

    In article <znr1061035495k@trad>, Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com>
    wrote:

    >Any reliable sources?


    Fuji AUDIO or "general purpose" blanks at Target!

    --
    Bob Olhsson Audio Mastery, Nashville TN 615.385.8051
    Mastering, Audio for Picture, Mix Evaluation and Quality Control
    http://www.hyperback.com/olhsson.html
    Over 40 years making people sound better than they ever imagined!
  17. EggHd

    EggHd Guest

    << Fuji AUDIO or "general purpose" blanks at Target! >>

    MY buddy just bought some target CDR's. I'll check them out.



    ---------------------------------------
    "I know enough to know I don't know enough"
  18. Bob Cain

    Bob Cain Guest

    Richard Crowley wrote:
    >
    > You won't likely HEAR (or even measure) any difference at first.
    > But long-term, you have a more "contrasty" image when it is
    > burned slower.


    Why might that be?

    > I would expect the quality effect to be more in
    > terms of longevity.


    And that?


    Bob
    --

    "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
    simpler."

    A. Einstein
  19. "Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
    news:3F3EC8EA.D0F4B5DD@arcanemethods.com...
    >
    >
    > Richard Crowley wrote:
    > >
    > > You won't likely HEAR (or even measure) any difference at first.
    > > But long-term, you have a more "contrasty" image when it is
    > > burned slower.

    >
    > Why might that be?


    And by "that" you are referring to what exactly?

    Why won't your HEAR the difference?
    Because ones are ones and zeroes are zeroes and Red Book
    has extensive error correction which most cousumers can't hear?

    Why is it more "contrasty"?
    Because it has longer "exposure time" at lower speeds?

    > > I would expect the quality effect to be more in
    > > terms of longevity.

    >
    > And that?


    Greater "distance" between "1" and "0".
    Takes longer to decay to unreadable
    (by whatever mechanism.)
    Much the same with any storage medium.
  20. Bob Cain

    Bob Cain Guest

    Richard Crowley wrote:
    >
    > "Bob Cain" <arcane@arcanemethods.com> wrote in message
    > news:3F3EC8EA.D0F4B5DD@arcanemethods.com...
    > >
    > >
    > > Richard Crowley wrote:
    > > >
    > > > You won't likely HEAR (or even measure) any difference at first.
    > > > But long-term, you have a more "contrasty" image when it is
    > > > burned slower.

    > >
    > > Why might that be?

    >
    > And by "that" you are referring to what exactly?


    I guess that's what I was asking you.

    >
    > Why won't your HEAR the difference?
    > Because ones are ones and zeroes are zeroes and Red Book
    > has extensive error correction which most cousumers can't hear?
    >
    > Why is it more "contrasty"?
    > Because it has longer "exposure time" at lower speeds?


    Oh. Never mind.

    >
    > > > I would expect the quality effect to be more in
    > > > terms of longevity.

    > >
    > > And that?

    >
    > Greater "distance" between "1" and "0".
    > Takes longer to decay to unreadable
    > (by whatever mechanism.)
    > Much the same with any storage medium.


    Er, ok.


    Bob
    --

    "Things should be described as simply as possible, but no
    simpler."

    A. Einstein

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