CD writing speed? and audio quality...

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by James Perrett, Aug 15, 2003.

  1. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    Troy <alternate-root@shaw.ca> wrote:
    >This is why you should buy Grade A duplicator quality CDs.Don't buy the CRAP
    >from the stores most of it is garbage.


    Yes, but how can you tell what any given disc is? You can't tell what the
    quality is until you get it home.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  2. Troy

    Troy Guest

    If you buy duplicator Grade A CDs by the case you can tell what they are as
    some CDs have a name on it or by reading the case.Ask for the ones I
    mentioned in this thread and you can't go wrong.


    Scott Dorsey <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
    news:bhmude$c40$1@panix2.panix.com...
    > Troy <alternate-root@shaw.ca> wrote:
    > >This is why you should buy Grade A duplicator quality CDs.Don't buy the

    CRAP
    > >from the stores most of it is garbage.

    >
    > Yes, but how can you tell what any given disc is? You can't tell what the
    > quality is until you get it home.
    > --scott
    >
    > --
    > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  3. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <wdw%a.743618$3C2.17274727@news3.calgary.shaw.ca> alternate-root@shaw.ca writes:

    > This is why you should buy Grade A duplicator quality CDs.Don't buy the CRAP
    > from the stores most of it is garbage.


    Do the millions of people who use that "garbage" for data backup,
    pictures, MP3 files, etc. have these problems? Clearly it isn't crap,
    it's just that audio people who try to save a little money (because
    everyone knows how cheap blank CDs are) are using the wrong tools for
    the job.

    Like everything else audio, until there's a consumer need for it, the
    market will be small and therefore the price will be high. I'm not
    just talking about CD blanks here, but drives too. Remember just a few
    short years ago, it cost $20,000 for a device to record an audio CD in
    real time? For a while people were arguing the merits of Plextor vs.
    Sony vs. TEAC vs. Yamaha drives and Plextor was the clear winner for
    making reliable disks (as well as the clear loser in price, being as
    much as 4 times the cost of the utility grade drives). Today we can buy
    a Plextor Premium drive for $135 (which is still 4x the cost of a
    utility grade drive), but is it still as good as it uster be? I dunno.

    It seems that the most important characteristic of blanks when it
    comes to making reliable audio CDs on ordinary drives is rapidly
    disappearing. Is a 52X speed rated premium brand really better for
    making an audio CD than a cheapie of the same speed? Consistently? I
    don't think we have enough data to find out, because most people, once
    they find one or two out of a stack of blanks that don't work
    immediately stop using them and switch to another (possibly enen
    identical) brand.

    Maybe what we really need, for those who care about quality, is a new
    series of audio-intended CD-R drives, at a premium price. How much
    would you pay to stop making coasters? And for a drive that doesn't
    wear out after a year of studio service? Yamaha has apparently given
    it some thought with a drive with this "audio master" writing mode.
    Has anyone make a couple of thousand CDs with one of those yet, using
    a variety of blanks? Or will it disappear from the market before we
    have sufficient data to prove the value of its design?

    I wish I could say "speak with your wallet" but there's hardly anyone
    who counts who's listening.


    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  4. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <dgw%a.743646$3C2.17275068@news3.calgary.shaw.ca> alternate-root@shaw.ca writes:

    > Yes this is true.....always turn off the buffer under run.It causes problems
    > with playback on CD players.


    Would someone like to update the principle of "buffer under-run" for
    me? This used to be the major cause of errors on a CD-R as I recall.
    You'd start burning, you'd get the error message, and it would stop.

    So did the "protection" help prevent the problem that was causing the
    error message, or did it simply allow the drive to go on working after
    an error condition was detected?


    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  5. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <Tyw%a.740546$ro6.15203833@news2.calgary.shaw.ca> alternate-root@shaw.ca writes:

    > Buy them by the case Mitsui and Taiyo Yuden come in cases of 600 and Ritek
    > and Prodisc come in cases of 500


    What do you recommend for someone who has had CD-R capability for
    about two years and still hasn't gone through is first purchase of two
    50-packs? Do I need to pay a buck or more a piece for small quantities
    of your recommended disks? If so, I'd rather live with a couple of
    errors now and then.

    If someone says the CD I made for them won't play in their CD player,
    I have two stock replies:

    1. "Do you have another CD player?"

    (CD players are like cats. Nobody has just one) Usually it will play
    in another player but for some reason the thought of trying it
    somewhere else never occurs to them. I don't make finished CDs,
    only reference copies, so it doesn't matter to me if they don't
    work in every player. This isn't important at my working level. Of
    course it would be important if my gig was making production CDs.

    2. "I could make you a cassette copy."



    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  6. "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
    news:znr1061122056k@trad...
    >
    > In article <wdw%a.743618$3C2.17274727@news3.calgary.shaw.ca>

    alternate-root@shaw.ca writes:
    >
    > > This is why you should buy Grade A duplicator quality CDs.Don't buy the

    CRAP
    > > from the stores most of it is garbage.

    >
    > Do the millions of people who use that "garbage" for data backup,
    > pictures, MP3 files, etc. have these problems? Clearly it isn't crap,
    > it's just that audio people who try to save a little money (because
    > everyone knows how cheap blank CDs are) are using the wrong tools for
    > the job.


    Umm, EC for data is far more robust than for audio CDs. The quality of the
    writer and media is far more important in audio for that reason...
    -----------------
    Brad Blackwood
    www.euphonicmasters.com
  7. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    In article <znr1061122056k@trad>, Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote:
    >In article <wdw%a.743618$3C2.17274727@news3.calgary.shaw.ca> alternate-root@shaw.ca writes:
    >
    >> This is why you should buy Grade A duplicator quality CDs.Don't buy the CRAP
    >> from the stores most of it is garbage.

    >
    >Do the millions of people who use that "garbage" for data backup,
    >pictures, MP3 files, etc. have these problems?


    Yes, but because of the added error correction in the CD-ROM format, it
    is less of an issue for them. A couple E32s, and an audio disc is junk.
    On a CD-ROM it doesn't make a bit of difference.

    >Clearly it isn't crap,
    >it's just that audio people who try to save a little money (because
    >everyone knows how cheap blank CDs are) are using the wrong tools for
    >the job.


    It's crap. Error rates on the newer high speed discs are far higher than
    on the older discs. 74 minute discs are becoming harder and harder to
    find, and the old 63 minute discs (which had an even coarser pitch and
    tracked even better) are nonexistent.

    >Like everything else audio, until there's a consumer need for it, the
    >market will be small and therefore the price will be high.


    That is okay. What I am complaining about is that many things (like 63
    minute blanks) have become totally unobtainable. I was paying $25 each
    for blanks wholesale when I got my first Studer CD-R recorder. I was
    getting much lower error rates than I am getting even today with the
    Mitsuis. There are a few jobs now and then when I'd be willing to pay
    $25 a pop today for the lower error rates. But I couldn't get them at
    any price.

    >It seems that the most important characteristic of blanks when it
    >comes to making reliable audio CDs on ordinary drives is rapidly
    >disappearing. Is a 52X speed rated premium brand really better for
    >making an audio CD than a cheapie of the same speed? Consistently? I
    >don't think we have enough data to find out, because most people, once
    >they find one or two out of a stack of blanks that don't work
    >immediately stop using them and switch to another (possibly enen
    >identical) brand.


    ALL of them seem to be getting worse.

    >Maybe what we really need, for those who care about quality, is a new
    >series of audio-intended CD-R drives, at a premium price. How much
    >would you pay to stop making coasters? And for a drive that doesn't
    >wear out after a year of studio service? Yamaha has apparently given
    >it some thought with a drive with this "audio master" writing mode.
    >Has anyone make a couple of thousand CDs with one of those yet, using
    >a variety of blanks? Or will it disappear from the market before we
    >have sufficient data to prove the value of its design?


    These already exist. The standalone machines are clearly designed for
    audio, and there are models like the high end Plextor which are specifically
    intended for audio and have some features like error reporting that are
    designed for the audio users.

    What does not exist are decent blanks intended for audio work. Other than
    the Mitsuis and Taiyo Yudens, and I wonder how long those will be around.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  8. I've learned something important from this thread and it goes like this--

    People who post on Friday-Saturday are more likely to be full of shit
    fakers.
  9. "Troy" <alternate-root@shaw.ca> wrote in message
    news:0jw%a.772309$Vi5.17476946@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
    > Its kind of like running a real to real at 15 ips or 30 ips.You get less
    > time on the CD.



    Is your Freudian slip showing on reel to reel?

    Jerry Steiger
  10. Arny Krueger

    Arny Krueger Guest

    "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
    news:znr1061122231k@trad
    > In article <dgw%a.743646$3C2.17275068@news3.calgary.shaw.ca>
    > alternate-root@shaw.ca writes:
    >
    >> Yes this is true.....always turn off the buffer under run.It causes
    >> problems with playback on CD players.

    >
    > Would someone like to update the principle of "buffer under-run" for
    > me? This used to be the major cause of errors on a CD-R as I recall.
    > You'd start burning, you'd get the error message, and it would stop.
    >
    > So did the "protection" help prevent the problem that was causing the
    > error message, or did it simply allow the drive to go on working after
    > an error condition was detected?


    Buffer underrun protection changed how CD burners respond to running out of
    data to burn. The old technique involved aborting the job and creating a
    coaster. The new technique allows the burn to be transparently restarted
    when data again becomes available. One CD guru described it as involving
    finally giving burners about the same smarts as any red book compatible
    audio CD drive.
  11. Troy

    Troy Guest

    You can also buy them in packs of 100 if you don't use that many.


    Mike Rivers <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
    news:znr1061122560k@trad...
    >
    > In article <Tyw%a.740546$ro6.15203833@news2.calgary.shaw.ca>

    alternate-root@shaw.ca writes:
    >
    > > Buy them by the case Mitsui and Taiyo Yuden come in cases of 600 and

    Ritek
    > > and Prodisc come in cases of 500

    >
    > What do you recommend for someone who has had CD-R capability for
    > about two years and still hasn't gone through is first purchase of two
    > 50-packs? Do I need to pay a buck or more a piece for small quantities
    > of your recommended disks? If so, I'd rather live with a couple of
    > errors now and then.
    >
    > If someone says the CD I made for them won't play in their CD player,
    > I have two stock replies:
    >
    > 1. "Do you have another CD player?"
    >
    > (CD players are like cats. Nobody has just one) Usually it will play
    > in another player but for some reason the thought of trying it
    > somewhere else never occurs to them. I don't make finished CDs,
    > only reference copies, so it doesn't matter to me if they don't
    > work in every player. This isn't important at my working level. Of
    > course it would be important if my gig was making production CDs.
    >
    > 2. "I could make you a cassette copy."
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  12. Troy

    Troy Guest

    No my french is showing ;-)


    Jerry Steiger <gwsteiger@comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:bhoc8c$1horn$1@ID-188822.news.uni-berlin.de...
    > "Troy" <alternate-root@shaw.ca> wrote in message
    > news:0jw%a.772309$Vi5.17476946@news1.calgary.shaw.ca...
    > > Its kind of like running a real to real at 15 ips or 30 ips.You get less
    > > time on the CD.

    >
    >
    > Is your Freudian slip showing on reel to reel?
    >
    > Jerry Steiger
    >
    >
  13. GagMe@aol.com wrote:

    >
    >I've learned something important from this thread and it goes like this--
    >
    >People who post on Friday-Saturday are more likely to be full of shit
    >fakers.



    And I see Sunday is much better. Thanks.
  14. Troy

    Troy Guest

    Are you saying I am full of shit?


    <GagMe@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:nlgvjvsbe6jpiqa94e9e7p5gf4u4aqj8j9@4ax.com...
    > GagMe@aol.com wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >I've learned something important from this thread and it goes like this--
    > >
    > >People who post on Friday-Saturday are more likely to be full of shit
    > >fakers.

    >
    >
    > And I see Sunday is much better. Thanks.
    >
  15. Brian

    Brian Guest

    In article <R2e%a.733244$ro6.15070262@news2.calgary.shaw.ca>, Troy
    <alternate-root@shaw.ca> wrote:

    > I run a CD Duplication business and I am in contact with many others that do
    > the same.We have all done our own testing and we all find the same problems
    > with high speed burning.The average guy burning CDs on his computer is not
    > going to see the affects of speed like we do.We burn thousands of CDs a
    > month.Even the best quality CDs have a hard time and it has alot to do with
    > the low prices of CDs.Alot of these companies really stretch the process and
    > supplies to make ends meet and the technology still isen't perfect.Its very
    > costly for quality control of CDs.A good source is Tape & Disc magazine.You
    > can throw out all the specs you want on all the burners but most companies
    > do the testing under perfect conditions and in the real world things are
    > alot different.


    Agreed wholeheartedly.

    The point of my original post was that while I certainly don't disagree
    that in general slower is better (you're almost always going to get a
    better burn at, say, 8x than 24x), it's not an absolute rule - if you
    get a lower BLER burning at 8x than 4x then, for your particular
    combination of media and hardware 8x (i.e faster) is better. If you
    change either one then you have to test again.

    I had an old Yamaha drive that got the best rate at its highest speed,
    16x, using TDK discs - any other brand at any other speed, as well as
    the TDK blanks at all lower speeds (1x, 2x, 4x, 8x, 12x) resulted in
    substantially higher error rates - still within acceptable spec, but
    higher nonetheless.

    Of course buying the best quality media is critical - those "HiVal"
    discs that people buy in bulk on the cheap are just crap - my general
    rule of thumb is if you don't recognize the manufacturer as being a
    known manufacturer in the blanks industry stay away - those generic
    discs *may* be quality blanks rebranded, but then again they may not.
    And anyone who is actually working in the industry (studios, mastering
    houses, etc.) have absolutely no excuse not to buy good discs - if I'm
    in a studio and see the guy is using some generic crap I run the other
    way, fast.
    8^)

    Brian
    (works at Disc Makers)
  16. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <bho1mn$3e5$1@panix2.panix.com> kludge@panix.com writes:

    > >Do the millions of people who use that "garbage" for data backup,
    > >pictures, MP3 files, etc. have these problems?

    >
    > A couple E32s, and an audio disc is junk.
    > On a CD-ROM it doesn't make a bit of difference.


    That's sort of my point. CD-R technology that's cheap and readily
    available isn't designed for audio use, it's designed for utility
    computer applications. DAT was like that, too, but it seemed to work
    better for our use.

    > It's crap. Error rates on the newer high speed discs are far higher than
    > on the older discs.


    But if it doesn't matter for computer appicaitons, and it makes the
    disks more valuable to the computer users, it's what we find in the
    market. Laws of supply and demand work only over a limited range. When
    the demand gets sufficently low (like people who care about making
    good audio CDs on a CD-R drive), nobody will offer a supply. We have
    people making premium mics and preamps in their basement to fill a
    limited demand, but I don't know how to make CD-R blanks in a
    basement.

    > >Like everything else audio, until there's a consumer need for it, the
    > >market will be small and therefore the price will be high.

    >
    > That is okay. What I am complaining about is that many things (like 63
    > minute blanks) have become totally unobtainable. I was paying $25 each
    > for blanks wholesale when I got my first Studer CD-R recorder.


    I had similar concerns with the Mackie hard disk recorder. Hard drives
    with lower than 30 GB capacity were becoming harder to find. Now that
    I can use drives up to 120 GB, I have a temporary reprieve, but even
    today I see more sales on 180-200 GB drives than I do on 40/80/120 GB
    models. I expect that those will evaporate from the marketplace within
    the next couple of years.

    > There are a few jobs now and then when I'd be willing to pay
    > $25 a pop today for the lower error rates. But I couldn't get them at
    > any price.


    That works if you're charging by the job, but if you charge by time
    and materials, people know how cheap CD-R blanks are.

    > These already exist. The standalone machines are clearly designed for
    > audio


    My TASCAM CD reocrder has what's probably some sort of stock Phillips
    drive in it (surprised that it isn't TEAC). Though every time it's
    worked, it's made a good CD, it has a tendency to fail some disks with
    an "OPC" message. According to the manual, this means either that the
    disk has been inserted more than 99 times (I guess that fills up the
    calibration area) or that it's dirty. When that happens, I put in
    another disk and it usually works.

    > What does not exist are decent blanks intended for audio work. Other than
    > the Mitsuis and Taiyo Yudens, and I wonder how long those will be around.


    Do these people know about requirements for audio, or are they just
    making good blanks (for the while)? Since the consumer copy protected
    audio CD recorders are obviously designed for audio, I wonder if the
    blanks designed for them are better for recording audio on a standard
    CD-R drive? I think they'll work, but I've never tried them.



    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  17. Steve King

    Steve King Guest

    "Brian" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
    news:170820031507206054%nospam@nospam.com...
    > In article <R2e%a.733244$ro6.15070262@news2.calgary.shaw.ca>, Troy
    > <alternate-root@shaw.ca> wrote:


    SNIP

    > The point of my original post was that while I certainly don't disagree
    > that in general slower is better (you're almost always going to get a
    > better burn at, say, 8x than 24x), it's not an absolute rule - if you
    > get a lower BLER burning at 8x than 4x then, for your particular
    > combination of media and hardware 8x (i.e faster) is better. If you
    > change either one then you have to test again.
    >
    > I had an old Yamaha drive that got the best rate at its highest speed,
    > 16x, using TDK discs - any other brand at any other speed, as well as
    > the TDK blanks at all lower speeds (1x, 2x, 4x, 8x, 12x) resulted in
    > substantially higher error rates - still within acceptable spec, but
    > higher nonetheless.
    >
    > Of course buying the best quality media is critical - those "HiVal"
    > discs that people buy in bulk on the cheap are just crap - my general
    > rule of thumb is if you don't recognize the manufacturer as being a
    > known manufacturer in the blanks industry stay away - those generic
    > discs *may* be quality blanks rebranded, but then again they may not.
    > And anyone who is actually working in the industry (studios, mastering
    > houses, etc.) have absolutely no excuse not to buy good discs - if I'm
    > in a studio and see the guy is using some generic crap I run the other
    > way, fast.
    > 8^)
    >
    > Brian
    > (works at Disc Makers)


    So, Brian, how can I determine an error rate for my burner/media combo? It
    hasn't happened in a while, but a year or so ago I was getting CDs rejected
    by a local Chicago duplicator, be cause they "contained too many errors". I
    was using a Plextor SCSI burner, Taiyo Yuden blanks, burning at several
    different speeds... from 4X to 12X, the fastest that old burner would go.
    Finally, the problem got solved, when the duplicating house burned my
    regular order of 250 CDs on an older duplication setup, where they ran fine.

    How can I know before I send off a CD to a duplicator whether there are
    errors... or how many, or?????

    And, no a Google search did not find an answer.

    Steve King
  18. John L Rice

    John L Rice Guest

    "Steve King" <steve@steveking.net> wrote in message
    news:W2R%a.170980$YN5.113717@sccrnsc01...
    > "Brian" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
    > news:170820031507206054%nospam@nospam.com...
    > > In article <R2e%a.733244$ro6.15070262@news2.calgary.shaw.ca>, Troy
    > > <alternate-root@shaw.ca> wrote:

    >
    > SNIP
    >
    > > The point of my original post was that while I certainly don't disagree
    > > that in general slower is better (you're almost always going to get a
    > > better burn at, say, 8x than 24x), it's not an absolute rule - if you
    > > get a lower BLER burning at 8x than 4x then, for your particular
    > > combination of media and hardware 8x (i.e faster) is better. If you
    > > change either one then you have to test again.
    > >
    > > I had an old Yamaha drive that got the best rate at its highest speed,
    > > 16x, using TDK discs - any other brand at any other speed, as well as
    > > the TDK blanks at all lower speeds (1x, 2x, 4x, 8x, 12x) resulted in
    > > substantially higher error rates - still within acceptable spec, but
    > > higher nonetheless.
    > >
    > > Of course buying the best quality media is critical - those "HiVal"
    > > discs that people buy in bulk on the cheap are just crap - my general
    > > rule of thumb is if you don't recognize the manufacturer as being a
    > > known manufacturer in the blanks industry stay away - those generic
    > > discs *may* be quality blanks rebranded, but then again they may not.
    > > And anyone who is actually working in the industry (studios, mastering
    > > houses, etc.) have absolutely no excuse not to buy good discs - if I'm
    > > in a studio and see the guy is using some generic crap I run the other
    > > way, fast.
    > > 8^)
    > >
    > > Brian
    > > (works at Disc Makers)

    >
    > So, Brian, how can I determine an error rate for my burner/media combo?

    It
    > hasn't happened in a while, but a year or so ago I was getting CDs

    rejected
    > by a local Chicago duplicator, be cause they "contained too many errors".

    I
    > was using a Plextor SCSI burner, Taiyo Yuden blanks, burning at several
    > different speeds... from 4X to 12X, the fastest that old burner would go.
    > Finally, the problem got solved, when the duplicating house burned my
    > regular order of 250 CDs on an older duplication setup, where they ran

    fine.
    >
    > How can I know before I send off a CD to a duplicator whether there are
    > errors... or how many, or?????
    >
    > And, no a Google search did not find an answer.
    >
    > Steve King



    The least expensive solution I know of is to get the Plextor Premium drive
    which can check error rates :
    http://www.plextor.com/english/products/Premium.html

    They are $119 at http://www.allstarshop.com etc

    Best of luck!

    John L Rice
    Drummer@ImJohn.com
  19. "Troy" <alternate-root@shaw.ca> wrote:

    >Are you saying I am full of shit?


    Well, "full" is obviously an exaggeration...

    You wrote:
    >No Matter what kind of drive you are using slower is better.Always burn
    >masters at 1X to 2 X.


    This statement conflicts with the experience of others (both users and
    burner manufacturers) who find that the lowest error rates are more
    burner-and-media specific than this simple formula. I'll concede that you
    speak from your own experience.

    You wrote:
    >Mistsui,Taiyo Yuden,Ritek (Diamond Silver),Prodisc (diamond silver).All
    >these CDs work good at 1X with no problems.We have also had good luck with
    >some of the CMC CDs also.


    You've named every manufacturer I know. Ritek and CMC are well-known
    low-end manufacturers and indeed their undamaged yet unreadable disks have
    come my way. Never so for Mitsui and TY. Plextor recommends TY (and
    Verbatim!)

    You wrote
    >This is why you should buy Grade A duplicator quality CDs.
    >Don't buy the CRAP from the stores most of it is garbage.


    I did a Google search for "duplicator quality" cds and found nothing but
    claims for duplicator machines. The name itself implies to me an optimum
    cost-quality point rather than a superior quality disk. Do you have any
    additional info?
  20. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <612dnWWvqbPIKqKiXTWJjw@comcast.com> arnyk@hotpop.com writes:

    > Buffer underrun protection changed how CD burners respond to running out of
    > data to burn. The old technique involved aborting the job and creating a
    > coaster. The new technique allows the burn to be transparently restarted
    > when data again becomes available.


    That's what I thought it meant. But doesn't data get read off the hard
    drive faster than it can be written on the CD (the reason why there's
    a buffer in the first place)? Or is this protection feature only
    beneficial to those who have other processes running that might keep
    the data source drive occupied long enough for the buffer to empty?

    What am I saying? I'm running Windows. _I_ have processes running
    that I know nothing about, and every once in a while, even on the
    comptuter that's isolated from the Internet, I see the disk activity
    light go on for several seconds and things slow down. No fast find, no
    screen savers, no virus checkers, no automatic updates - I haven't a
    clue as to what's going on there, not even when examining the list of
    processes running.




    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)

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