Drum corps = overrated?

Discussion in 'rec.music.percussion' started by pottedmeat42, Aug 24, 2003.

  1. pottedmeat42

    pottedmeat42 Guest

    I've been holding auditions lately for a pop/rock/folk band (I would
    take the chair, but in this lineup I'm vox + guitar). We've been
    burned several times lately by guys out of local drum corps. Each one
    showed up with great gear, good tuning, etc., then proceeded to "warm
    up" with huge fills around the kit. Lots of amazing chops & odd time
    sig stuff.

    It comes time to play, and each one was clueless. Completely
    oblivious to dynamics, chorus/verse transitions, feel. These clowns
    couldn't find the one, lots of rushing. Strangely enough, they each
    did a strange thing: slipping in and out of cut time, even within a
    verse.

    Another commonality: they worshipped at the throne of Mike Portnoy.
    The signature sticks, cymbals, etc.

    What gives? I thought these DCI guys were supposed to be the cream of
    the crop. No doubt they rule on the field, but are kit skills and
    corps skills mutually exclusive? Are these guys just exceptions to
    the rule?

    Jason
  2. MMORITZ884

    MMORITZ884 Guest

    >are kit skills and
    >corps skills mutually exclusive?


    No.

    >Are these guys just exceptions to
    >the rule?


    That would be my guess.
  3. Most corp guys are not very good at drumset. Although there are exceptions
    Gadd for one, but these guys are so focused on rudiments that they forget
    about set and time and feel.
    "pottedmeat42" <pottedmeat42@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:17470c7a.0308241201.4b80fd1a@posting.google.com...
    > I've been holding auditions lately for a pop/rock/folk band (I would
    > take the chair, but in this lineup I'm vox + guitar). We've been
    > burned several times lately by guys out of local drum corps. Each one
    > showed up with great gear, good tuning, etc., then proceeded to "warm
    > up" with huge fills around the kit. Lots of amazing chops & odd time
    > sig stuff.
    >
    > It comes time to play, and each one was clueless. Completely
    > oblivious to dynamics, chorus/verse transitions, feel. These clowns
    > couldn't find the one, lots of rushing. Strangely enough, they each
    > did a strange thing: slipping in and out of cut time, even within a
    > verse.
    >
    > Another commonality: they worshipped at the throne of Mike Portnoy.
    > The signature sticks, cymbals, etc.
    >
    > What gives? I thought these DCI guys were supposed to be the cream of
    > the crop. No doubt they rule on the field, but are kit skills and
    > corps skills mutually exclusive? Are these guys just exceptions to
    > the rule?
    >
    > Jason
  4. D. Crooks

    D. Crooks Guest

    Just like every genre of music, there are those guys that have it, and
    those who don't. Some corps guys will not only have rudimental snare
    chops, but also a good knowledge of music, theory, musicianship,
    ensemble playing skills, etc. Some corps guys can dazzle on the snare
    drum, and maybe even play the 'weird' stuff on kit. Put them with a
    group, and with out another six or seven guys standing next to them, or
    an instructor yelling at them, they can't play shit.

    As for Mike Portnoy...he does have chops, but he's definitely not the
    end-all be-all of set chops. I personally am not a Dream Theater fan,
    though I do appreciate their chops (I don't own any of their albums)

    Personally, I marched two years of drum corps, and two years of WGI
    winter drumline. While I learned a lot in corps, it is not the end-all
    be-all of my experience. What I've found is a lot of guys who ONLY
    march corps sell themselves on how great their corps/drumline was/is.
    Guys who marched corps and went on to play in the real world, however,
    don't really mention corps that much.

    It's a bummer that the people you've experienced who marched corps have
    basically sucked in the real world. Don't hold that against the rest of
    us ;)
    --
    doug



    pottedmeat42 wrote:

    > I've been holding auditions lately for a pop/rock/folk band (I would
    > take the chair, but in this lineup I'm vox + guitar). We've been
    > burned several times lately by guys out of local drum corps. Each one
    > showed up with great gear, good tuning, etc., then proceeded to "warm
    > up" with huge fills around the kit. Lots of amazing chops & odd time
    > sig stuff.
    >
    > It comes time to play, and each one was clueless. Completely
    > oblivious to dynamics, chorus/verse transitions, feel. These clowns
    > couldn't find the one, lots of rushing. Strangely enough, they each
    > did a strange thing: slipping in and out of cut time, even within a
    > verse.
    >
    > Another commonality: they worshipped at the throne of Mike Portnoy.
    > The signature sticks, cymbals, etc.
    >
    > What gives? I thought these DCI guys were supposed to be the cream of
    > the crop. No doubt they rule on the field, but are kit skills and
    > corps skills mutually exclusive? Are these guys just exceptions to
    > the rule?
    >
    > Jason
    >
  5. nick amoroso

    nick amoroso Guest

    randy wrote:

    >Most corp guys are not very good at drumset. Although there are exceptions
    >Gadd for one, but these guys are so focused on rudiments that they forget
    >about set and time and feel.


    you don't know how many drum corps guys i've seen who have no clue how to play
    a *song.*

    that said, i still believe that set players and drum corps players have a lot
    to learn from each other.

    peace,
    :nick amoroso:
    professional drums and instruction
    proud endorser of silver fox drumsticks
    -----
    "punching stuff rules" ~ dan radin
    "click click bloody click pancakes!" ~ stewie
  6. Sonall

    Sonall Guest

    I marched Drum Corp for a couple years, it was a good learning
    experience, but if I didn't have a great kit teacher in the beginning
    I'd be like all those other guys.

    I studied rudiments with Rob Carson who was an amazing technical
    instructor and could play every rudiment perfectly, but don't ask him
    to play on a kit, although he was an accomplished organist.

    Guess my point is that for the most part you are correct.
  7. Vits

    Vits Guest

    "D. Crooks" <perc2100@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:3F495F8D.80500@hotmail.com...
    > When you think about it, it's kind of like asking a professional
    > symphony player to do a drum gig. Some guys will have no problem, but
    > from what I've seen most orchestra percussionists couldn't play anything
    > on drumset.
    > --
    > doug


    In our orchestra, the Grand Rapids Symphony, I've played kit on our pops
    series for 24 years. My assistant, Dave Hall, is a funky kit player and
    Eric Sooy (of Black Swamp Percussion) plays drum set as well. Our
    timpanist, Dave Gross, does NOT play kit (or anything else that is below the
    majesticness of the holy kettledrums). Percussionists who don't play
    drumset go through life trying to explain why they don't!

    As far as Drum Corps goes, I think it's a great outlet for chops and
    military precision. However, it has nothing to do with creativity,
    spontaneity, or making money.

    Vits
  8. in article 20030824195943.06335.00000291@mb-m19.aol.com, nick amoroso at
    soulbelly@aol.comICAL wrote on 8/24/03 4:59 PM:

    > randy wrote:
    >
    >> Most corp guys are not very good at drumset. Although there are exceptions
    >> Gadd for one, but these guys are so focused on rudiments that they forget
    >> about set and time and feel.

    >
    > you don't know how many drum corps guys i've seen who have no clue how to play
    > a *song.*


    Yes, but can't the same be said for many that claim the drumset as their
    main focus. :)

    >
    > that said, i still believe that set players and drum corps players have a lot
    > to learn from each other.


    Exactly - include classical percussion and you have three very different
    things that share a LOT of common ground - particularly in the basic
    technical skills required. But from each takes a lot of specific focus to
    really pull off.

    Seeing that virtually all corps' player are through with it by age 21 -
    there is still some serious time after that to focus even more on kit
    playing with some serious facility in your back pocket. I think I would
    rather be a 22 year old with too much chops and a bunch of music work ahead
    of me, than be the same age with years kit playing behind me and just be
    discovering a brick wall in front of me because of lack of adequate
    technique. The older you get - the easier it is to improve musically and the
    harder it is too add or procure technique. (I saw this over and over at MI
    and the Grove School).

    David
    >
    > peace,
    > :nick amoroso:
    > professional drums and instruction
    > proud endorser of silver fox drumsticks
    > -----
    > "punching stuff rules" ~ dan radin
    > "click click bloody click pancakes!" ~ stewie
  9. AdamC

    AdamC Guest

    "Vits" <vitsy@comcast.net> wrote in message
    news:z5e2b.250051$Ho3.32545@sccrnsc03...
    >
    > "D. Crooks" <perc2100@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:3F495F8D.80500@hotmail.com...
    > > When you think about it, it's kind of like asking a professional
    > > symphony player to do a drum gig. Some guys will have no problem, but
    > > from what I've seen most orchestra percussionists couldn't play anything
    > > on drumset.
    > > --
    > > doug

    >
    > In our orchestra, the Grand Rapids Symphony, I've played kit on our pops
    > series for 24 years. My assistant, Dave Hall, is a funky kit player and
    > Eric Sooy (of Black Swamp Percussion) plays drum set as well. Our
    > timpanist, Dave Gross, does NOT play kit (or anything else that is below

    the
    > majesticness of the holy kettledrums). Percussionists who don't play
    > drumset go through life trying to explain why they don't!
    >
    > As far as Drum Corps goes, I think it's a great outlet for chops and
    > military precision. However, it has nothing to do with creativity,
    > spontaneity, or making money.
    >
    > Vits


    Being an 11 year vet of drum corps I find the comments that it's overrated
    offensive. I'm sure you guys knew I would. I'm still marching to this day
    and have no problem dividing the two from drum set to drum corps. Sometimes
    I might find myself using some of my corps rudiments for kick-ass insane
    fills when I probably shouldn't. I used to do it all the time but broke out
    of it.

    If it wasn't for drum corps I wouldn't have learned drum set on my own using
    what was given to me by the instructors I've had. That's right I taught
    myself and I am really proud of what I have accomplished and will continue
    to. If you want MP3's of my playing on DRUM SET please ask and I will show
    you just how good I am.

    Drum corps just doesn't teach people drumming or marching. It teaches
    proper attitudes, discipline, work ethic, life lessons, and how to make
    great life long friends. What activity can give you all of the things drum
    corps does? Nothing. You just can't find it any where else.

    There is a long list of drum corps guys that are now playing in top class
    rock, jazz, metal, alternative bands that are doing just fine. Joey
    Jordison, Chad Sexton, Dave Weckl, drummer from Barenaked Ladies, Matt
    Sorum, all kinds of guys. To tell me that they can't play proper because
    they did drum corps is just down right stupid.

    In fact here are my MP3's. I'm putting myself and my playing on the line to
    prove a point. Take it for what it's worth.

    http://216.12.218.129/members/kgman1/Obsidian - Peccato.mp3
    http://216.12.218.129/members/kgman1/Obsidian - Release.mp3
    http://216.12.218.129/members/kgman1/Obsidian - Sinjection.mp3

    Take a listen, enjoy, hate it, like it, whatever. But to tell me I don't
    have creativity, spontaneity, musicality, dynamics, is just stupid on your
    part and you are ignorant. Drum corps is all about creativity, dynamics,
    playing as one, musicality, emotion. It's not about chops and who can play
    128th note rolls for crying out loud.

    I really think the majority of people here really need to see drum corps in
    person and do a lot of research before you speak about it. If you know next
    to nothing then don't put your word into it.

    AdamC
  10. JohnFuckPope

    JohnFuckPope Guest

    >Being an 11 year vet of drum corps I find the comments that it's overrated
    >offensive. I'm sure you guys knew I would.


    I'm sure you knew noone here would give a fuck what your opinion is. On
    anything.

    I'm still marching to this day
    >and have no problem dividing the two from drum set to drum corps. Sometimes
    >I might find myself using some of my corps rudiments for kick-ass insane
    >fills when I probably shouldn't. I used to do it all the time but broke out
    >of it.


    Get over yourself. We know how much you suck already.

    >
    >If it wasn't for drum corps I wouldn't have learned drum set on my own using
    >what was given to me by the instructors I've had. That's right I taught
    >myself and I am really proud of what I have accomplished and will continue
    >to. If you want MP3's of my playing on DRUM SET please ask and I will show
    >you just how good I am.


    ZZZZZZZZ.

    LOL! So let me get this straight - the goon that everyone here thinks sucks -
    the loser that can't play to save his life - the ONE guy who everyone as a
    whole laughs at here - THIS guy is going to save the reputation of drum corps
    in this forum? LOL! ROTFLMAO!

    You desperetly need a life, little man.

    >
    >Drum corps just doesn't teach people drumming or marching. It teaches
    >proper attitudes, discipline, work ethic, life lessons, and how to make
    >great life long friends. What activity can give you all of the things drum
    >corps does? Nothing. You just can't find it any where else.


    Why didn't you acquire any of that?

    >
    >There is a long list of drum corps guys that are now playing in top class
    >rock, jazz, metal, alternative bands that are doing just fine. Joey
    >Jordison, Chad Sexton, Dave Weckl, drummer from Barenaked Ladies, Matt
    >Sorum, all kinds of guys. To tell me that they can't play proper because
    >they did drum corps is just down right stupid.
    >
    >In fact here are my MP3's. I'm putting myself and my playing on the line to
    >prove a point. Take it for what it's worth.
    >
    >http://216.12.218.129/members/kgman1/Obsidian - Peccato.mp3
    >http://216.12.218.129/members/kgman1/Obsidian - Release.mp3
    >http://216.12.218.129/members/kgman1/Obsidian - Sinjection.mp3
    >


    It's worthless. You've made a laughing stock of yourself here. Go back to the
    pearl forum where youre looked at as an "expert." LOL!

    >Take a listen, enjoy, hate it, like it, whatever. But to tell me I don't
    >have creativity, spontaneity, musicality, dynamics, is just stupid on your
    >part and you are ignorant. Drum corps is all about creativity, dynamics,
    >playing as one, musicality, emotion. It's not about chops and who can play
    >128th note rolls for crying out loud.
    >
    >I really think the majority of people here really need to see drum corps in
    >person and do a lot of research before you speak about it. If you know next
    >to nothing then don't put your word into it.
    >
    >AdamC
    >
    >


    Most people wish the same of you, dumbass. Does it impede your everyday life to
    be this stupid?

    Rolo Tomasi
  11. pottedmeat42

    pottedmeat42 Guest

    > playing with some serious facility in your back pocket. I think I would
    > rather be a 22 year old with too much chops and a bunch of music work ahead
    > of me, than be the same age with years kit playing behind me and just be
    > discovering a brick wall in front of me because of lack of adequate
    > technique. The older you get - the easier it is to improve musically and the
    > harder it is too add or procure technique. (I saw this over and over at MI
    > and the Grove School).
    >


    Very good point, this describes me *exactly*. I would be absolutely
    laughed off the field if I attempted some of the things the corps do.
    Sight reading, fagetaboutit!

    Jason
  12. "AdamC" <acorreia@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
    news:FBo2b.8884$q9.513873@read1.cgocable.net...

    > If it wasn't for drum corps I wouldn't have learned drum set on my own

    using
    > what was given to me by the instructors I've had. That's right I taught
    > myself and I am really proud of what I have accomplished and will continue
    > to. If you want MP3's of my playing on DRUM SET please ask and I will

    show
    > you just how good I am.


    Here we go again, folks. "Just how good I am"? Why do you feel the need
    to pound your chest, Adam? I listened to your MP3s and I think you have some
    nice chops, but I guess humility isn't one of those "life lessons" they
    teach in drum corps.

    > Drum corps just doesn't teach people drumming or marching. It teaches
    > proper attitudes, discipline, work ethic, life lessons, and how to make
    > great life long friends. What activity can give you all of the things

    drum
    > corps does? Nothing. You just can't find it any where else.


    So drum corps is the ONLY activity that teaches you these things? What a
    joke. You should really try engaging your brain before you post, once in a
    while. What about team sports? Martial arts? For that matter, what about
    private music lessons? I learned all of that and MORE from my long time drum
    teacher.

    > http://216.12.218.129/members/kgman1/Obsidian - Peccato.mp3
    > http://216.12.218.129/members/kgman1/Obsidian - Release.mp3
    > http://216.12.218.129/members/kgman1/Obsidian - Sinjection.mp3
    >
    > Take a listen, enjoy, hate it, like it, whatever. But to tell me I don't
    > have creativity, spontaneity, musicality, dynamics, is just stupid on your
    > part and you are ignorant. Drum corps is all about creativity, dynamics,
    > playing as one, musicality, emotion. It's not about chops and who can

    play
    > 128th note rolls for crying out loud.


    > I really think the majority of people here really need to see drum corps

    in
    > person and do a lot of research before you speak about it. If you know

    next
    > to nothing then don't put your word into it.
    >
    > AdamC


    Admittedly, I know next to nothing about drum corps. It never interested
    me. I'm not as much commenting on drum corps itself, but rather you as its
    resident representative.

    CM
  13. "AdamC" <acorreia@cogeco.ca> wrote in message
    news:FBo2b.8884$q9.513873@read1.cgocable.net...

    [snip...]

    > There is a long list of drum corps guys that are now playing in top class
    > rock, jazz, metal, alternative bands that are doing just fine. Joey
    > Jordison, Chad Sexton, Dave Weckl, drummer from Barenaked Ladies, Matt
    > Sorum, all kinds of guys. To tell me that they can't play proper because
    > they did drum corps is just down right stupid.
    >

    Dave Weckl states in his Back to Basics video that he was never in a drum
    corps.
  14. PERC 1

    PERC 1 Guest

    Can't we just get along?
  15. > http://216.12.218.129/members/kgman1/Obsidian - Peccato.mp3
    > http://216.12.218.129/members/kgman1/Obsidian - Release.mp3
    > http://216.12.218.129/members/kgman1/Obsidian - Sinjection.mp3
    >
    > Take a listen, enjoy, hate it, like it, whatever.


    What brand of coffee can are you using for a snare?

    > I really think the majority of people here really need to see drum corps in
    > person and do a lot of research before you speak about it. If you know next
    > to nothing then don't put your word into it.


    I think the majority of people here see the drum corps as a bunch of
    fruits in silly costumes playing horrible sounding snare drums...
  16. Sam Savoca

    Sam Savoca Guest

  17. D. Crooks

    D. Crooks Guest

    Vits wrote:


    > As far as Drum Corps goes, I think it's a great outlet for chops and
    > military precision. However, it has nothing to do with creativity,
    > spontaneity, or making money.
    >
    > Vits
    >
    >
    >



    I do believe you hit the nail right on the head with that last statement!!
    --
    doug
  18. Quadricept

    Quadricept Guest

    Drum Corps taught me:

    -rythmic accuracy.
    -dynamics.
    -how to read music.
    -tempo control.
    -how to relate my hands to my feet.
    -how great classical forms of music can be.
    -that I *can* do anything with practice.
    and...
    -how to take criticism and adjust.

    It's the reason I still play drums every day and try to be the best musician I
    can be.

    Todd
    ***
    "Yo, play faster" -Thomas Hannum
    "underwater fight scenes are the drum solos of movies" -Servo
    Lula's Birthmark - Original. Lyrical. www.lula's-birthmark.com
  19. Robert Schuh

    Robert Schuh Guest

    David Crigger wrote:

    > in article 20030824195943.06335.00000291@mb-m19.aol.com, nick amoroso at
    > soulbelly@aol.comICAL wrote on 8/24/03 4:59 PM:
    >
    > > randy wrote:
    > >
    > >> Most corp guys are not very good at drumset. Although there are exceptions
    > >> Gadd for one, but these guys are so focused on rudiments that they forget
    > >> about set and time and feel.

    > >
    > > you don't know how many drum corps guys i've seen who have no clue how to play
    > > a *song.*

    >
    > Yes, but can't the same be said for many that claim the drumset as their
    > main focus. :)
    >
    > >
    > > that said, i still believe that set players and drum corps players have a lot
    > > to learn from each other.

    >
    > Exactly - include classical percussion and you have three very different
    > things that share a LOT of common ground - particularly in the basic
    > technical skills required. But from each takes a lot of specific focus to
    > really pull off.
    >
    > Seeing that virtually all corps' player are through with it by age 21 -
    > there is still some serious time after that to focus even more on kit
    > playing with some serious facility in your back pocket. I think I would
    > rather be a 22 year old with too much chops and a bunch of music work ahead
    > of me, than be the same age with years kit playing behind me and just be
    > discovering a brick wall in front of me because of lack of adequate
    > technique. The older you get - the easier it is to improve musically and the
    > harder it is too add or procure technique. (I saw this over and over at MI
    > and the Grove School).
    >
    > David
    >


    David,
    While I agree with your contention that it is more difficult to obtain serious
    technique at an older age, I think that is mainly due to no longer having the free
    time to commit to practice. When I was say, 15-22, I had FAR more time to spend the
    6 or so hours/day that one needs to get the chops. I think ANYONE can develop strong
    technique if the spend the time in the room. That is also why I think great chops
    are THE most over rated thing going.



    --
    Robert Schuh
    "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
    intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
    the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
    the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
    - Nietzsche

    "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa

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