Hired Gun Dilemma

Discussion in 'rec.music.percussion' started by JWald, Aug 20, 2003.

  1. In article <x3X0b.10385$Ih1.3857002@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>,
    "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:

    > Name me one employer who has ever given
    > any musican a 30 year job.


    Hmmm... How about the Cleveland Orchestra? I know that 60% of the
    percussion section has been there over 30 years.

    --
    Mell D. Csicsila
    email: mcsicsil (AT) kent (DOT) edu
    web: http://home.sprintmail.com/~mdcsicsila
  2. George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > Ben, we're talking gigs here, not recording contracts. The record contract
    > still does not guarantee you job security. People get hired and fired out of
    > bands with deals all the time. Session players get called in, etc. It
    > depends on who has the money, not the contract.


    I know what you are saying and in fact this whole thread sort
    of got started by a remark thinking in gig mode implying
    that everyone is in gig mode. But as someone pointed out
    there are different situations. In a sense the players in
    the Cleveland Orcestra are "hired guns" and in another they
    are not. In one sense getting hired is like being employed
    as might be symphony players, but on the other hand, a musician
    is often an independent business man. So in that sense a
    gig isn't employment, it's a "sale of services" much like
    a dentist or a doctor or garage mechanic does. Is your
    dentist a "hired gun". Well yeah, you hire him to fix your
    teeth and you can fire him at any time, but really he's a
    business. Musicians think of contracts as "recording contracts"
    and yeah, they are contracts. But I'm saying that in truth
    we are all for the most part independent businesspeople
    who make a "contract" everytime we make a "sale" to provide
    our services. Just like the fine print on the bill for getting
    your car fixed, the terms of the sale are negotiated according to
    an agreement between buyer and seller. To me that's somewhat
    different from just being a "hired gun". That's all I'm saying.

    Benj

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  3. George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:

    <snip great booking/amateur band story>

    > Luckily I re-booked those dates, but I felt
    > sorry for the other players in that band who had to put up with this
    > incompetence and knew that he had lied to me. Sometimes you can get amateur
    > or part time musicians to understand the concept of "dates" but sometimes
    > you can't.


    Sorry George, but I just HAVE to ask. Where does a drummer
    at your level find dates in Akron?

    Oh wait. I know. You drive to Cleveland !!!!

    :)

    Benj
    (Who will be throughly surprised if he learns of some thriving
    underground music scene in the rubber city)

    --
    SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!
  4. Alan Watkins

    Alan Watkins Guest

    "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:<Bch1b.11197$Ih1.4110395@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>...
    > Ben, we're talking gigs here, not recording contracts. The record contract
    > still does not guarantee you job security. People get hired and fired out of
    > bands with deals all the time. Session players get called in, etc. It
    > depends on who has the money, not the contract.
    >
    > --
    > George Lawrence
    > George's Drum Shop
    > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > 330 670 0800
    > toll free 866 970 0800
    >
    > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > buy each of his children a drum."
    > -Chinese proverb
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > news:bi40g6$h30$2@tribune.oar.net...
    > > Alan Watkins <alanwatkinsuk@aol.com> wrote:
    > >
    > > > All I am saying is that if I am booked for Monday, Wednesday and
    > > > Friday I don't give a s**t who is playing on Tuesday, Thursday,
    > > > Saturday.

    >
    > > > I'll stick by yes or no.

    > >
    > > But that's because you are a sideman. Consider for a moment
    > > that (Yeah I know this is a stretch :) that you and some buds
    > > formed a band and together you were developing a concept
    > > that people were starting to dig. It starts to look like at
    > > least there is the possiblity of some heavy cash down the
    > > road. In this case it suddenly becomes VERY important
    > > exactly WHO is playing Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday.
    > >
    > > To say you aren't interested is the same as saying,"Well
    > > I've been working very hard with my pals to develop our
    > > band and it's starting to catch on. I can see that one day
    > > my friends are all going to be VERY rich! Of course, I'm
    > > not interested because I'll be long gone before then. I wish
    > > them well. I was glad to help them get started. The Holiday
    > > Inn just called me with gigs and I said 'yes'".
    > >
    > > Benj


    I thought we were talking about gigs and, with respect, if you are
    being "replaced" by someone with the apparent power to flit in and out
    of a band we ARE talking about gigs. I agree with your comments about
    concepts but it doesn't sound to me, from what you say, that it is a
    priority with that particular group. If it was they would either
    insist on you or insist on him.

    The way you originally described it (and I apologise if I was wrong)
    it sounded like a gig by any other name. On the night when you were
    replaced by the other musician, I would certainly have accepted a
    Holiday Inn booking. The trick in this business, if there is one, is
    to keep working and, if possible, not to make way for other people.

    I've never been in a branch of the business where the musicians got
    VERY rich. I can't remember being in a branch of the business that
    even got ordinary rich.

    One of the advantages of saying "Yes" is that you get to be heard and
    seen by many people and whatever branch of music we are talking about
    I would guess it plays an enormous part in making a career in the
    business. For good or bad it is called "getting on the circuit."

    I understand your point perfectly and I would humbly suggest that you
    need to confront the leader of the band with your point. Him or me,
    make a choice. I doubt you will be satisfied until you make such a
    confrontation.

    I have a band which plays salon music (not your sort of stuff) and I
    hand picked my players (with substitutes to cover players not
    available) but I would never countenance someone coming in for a few
    pieces and then disappearing.

    Kind regards,
    Alan M. Watkins
  5. Give that man a cigar!

    --
    George Lawrence
    George's Drum Shop
    1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    Copley, Ohio 44321
    http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    http://www.Drumguru.com
    330 670 0800
    toll free 866 970 0800

    "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    buy each of his children a drum."
    -Chinese proverb




    "Mell Csicsila" <mcsicsil@kent.edu> wrote in message
    news:mcsicsil-1BF7A6.10215422082003@news.east.earthlink.net...
    > In article <x3X0b.10385$Ih1.3857002@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>,
    > "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    >
    > > Name me one employer who has ever given
    > > any musican a 30 year job.

    >
    > Hmmm... How about the Cleveland Orchestra? I know that 60% of the
    > percussion section has been there over 30 years.
    >
    > --
    > Mell D. Csicsila
    > email: mcsicsil (AT) kent (DOT) edu
    > web: http://home.sprintmail.com/~mdcsicsila
  6. Alan Watkins

    Alan Watkins Guest

    jmt <jmt@shawneelink.net> wrote in message news:<bi2dl1$4jm6v$1@ID-46790.news.uni-berlin.de>...
    > Dear JW;
    > No. You take it or leave it, same as any other gig situation.
    > jmt
    >
    > JWald wrote:
    > > What would you do?
    > > You are hired as a 2 to 6 mos. replacement for a drummer, who for reasons
    > > that don't matter, wanted/needed time off. You play 3 or 4 jobs and are told
    > > that the next gig was booked by the drummer prior to going on hiatus, and
    > > will pay twice the bands normal rate; btw, he might be there.
    > > Then you receive notice that he WILL be there, because he is going to play
    > > the gig. Are you the slightest bit upset?
    > > --
    > > jwald
    > >
    > > "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli."
    > > Clemenza - Godfather I


    I suspect jmt has written the awful truth of this matter. You say yes
    or no but I do understand the confusion of the poster. But this is
    not always a terribly nice business if you are a player but if you are
    doing it for a living (or as an important additional income) you have
    to eat, you have to pay the bills. You take all sorts of s**t in the
    process.

    To compensate that, you get to play and some gigs are wonderful. It
    is not always a lovely business in whatever field of music. Although
    it is hard to do I would put down the poster's experience as just that
    and hope that the next time the bandman rings you have other
    engagements lined up and can truthfully say: "I'm terribly sorry, I am
    not available."

    The business of learning who to deal with and who NOT to deal with is
    often extremely painful and upsetting.

    Kind regards,
    Alan M. Watkins
  7. BKO

    BKO Guest

    > he was the weakest player in the band and owned the P.A. system. :)

    I see this much too often: The correlation is uncanny :)

    BKO

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