More MIDI file problems

Discussion in 'comp.music.midi' started by Kingy75, Aug 22, 2003.

  1. Kingy75

    Kingy75 Guest

    Hi all,
    I have problems again!

    I've encountered a problem that has me stumped. A client whom I edit MIDI
    files for brought me a sequence (which he originally purchased from
    BandTrax) recently which suddenly started behaving strangely. A few bars
    into the song every note stuck & held indefinitely till I hit stop (when
    playing the file back on my PC). However on my client's Roland MT80S that he
    uses to play files at gigs, the only way to stop the sound was to turn the
    unit off then on again & occasionally his units' stop button would work

    I have never encountered a problem like this before and had no idea how to
    repair it. Turns out he had back-up so all was solved - or so we thought.
    The same problem now occurs in 3 or 4 other songs on the same disk as the
    original file (remembering the original corrupt file had been replaced with
    a working back-up copy). Now on this disk are songs purchased from BandTrax
    and also MIDI files my client has obtained from the internet. I suspected
    that one/all of the internet files are somehow causing the problem, would
    you agree?

    The thing I don't understand - as I don't personally use internet files - is
    what exactly is wrong with the internet files that would have caused such a
    problem in the first place? And why would it jump, like a worm, from song to
    song? As I said to my client, I believe the solution is simply not to use
    internet files. Can you think of anything that would have caused this
    problem, and/or any solutions to it?"

    BandTraxs' advice was firstly to clean the MT80S disk drive and take it from
    there. Any thoughts/suggestions?

    Thanks,
    Kingy75
  2. SCOOBY DOO

    SCOOBY DOO Guest

    Are these hanging notes sustained notes...??? if so the relevant command to
    switch the sustain off may not have been entered hence the sticking/hanging
    notes
    The easy way to get round this is to enter a CC64 (sustain command) with a
    value of zero after the offending note should end on the appropriate track.
    Hope this helps
    Regards............Mark

    --
    If everything's coming your way then you're in the wrong lane..!!
    "Kingy75" <kingy75@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
    news:3f46a18b@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
    > Hi all,
    > I have problems again!
    >
    > I've encountered a problem that has me stumped. A client whom I edit MIDI
    > files for brought me a sequence (which he originally purchased from
    > BandTrax) recently which suddenly started behaving strangely. A few bars
    > into the song every note stuck & held indefinitely till I hit stop (when
    > playing the file back on my PC). However on my client's Roland MT80S that

    he
    > uses to play files at gigs, the only way to stop the sound was to turn the
    > unit off then on again & occasionally his units' stop button would work
    >
    > I have never encountered a problem like this before and had no idea how to
    > repair it. Turns out he had back-up so all was solved - or so we thought.
    > The same problem now occurs in 3 or 4 other songs on the same disk as the
    > original file (remembering the original corrupt file had been replaced

    with
    > a working back-up copy). Now on this disk are songs purchased from

    BandTrax
    > and also MIDI files my client has obtained from the internet. I suspected
    > that one/all of the internet files are somehow causing the problem, would
    > you agree?
    >
    > The thing I don't understand - as I don't personally use internet files -

    is
    > what exactly is wrong with the internet files that would have caused such

    a
    > problem in the first place? And why would it jump, like a worm, from song

    to
    > song? As I said to my client, I believe the solution is simply not to use
    > internet files. Can you think of anything that would have caused this
    > problem, and/or any solutions to it?"
    >
    > BandTraxs' advice was firstly to clean the MT80S disk drive and take it

    from
    > there. Any thoughts/suggestions?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Kingy75
    >
    >
    >



    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 19/08/2003
  3. On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:03:21 +1000, "Kingy75" <kingy75@tpg.com.au>
    wrote:

    >Hi all,
    >I have problems again!
    >
    >I've encountered a problem that has me stumped. A client whom I edit MIDI
    >files for brought me a sequence (which he originally purchased from
    >BandTrax) recently which suddenly started behaving strangely. A few bars
    >into the song every note stuck & held indefinitely till I hit stop (when
    >playing the file back on my PC). However on my client's Roland MT80S that he
    >uses to play files at gigs, the only way to stop the sound was to turn the
    >unit off then on again & occasionally his units' stop button would work


    My first guess is an obvious one -- the sustain pedal was used in
    the file, without an event following to turn it off.

    Good practice for all gig files: add a setup measure with sysex to
    reset, controllers set to reset values. That at least should clear
    any settings from prior songs played. I don't know if the MT80S
    offers a 'reset when loading new song' sort of option, but even it it
    does, it can't hurt to put that info into the file.

    >I have never encountered a problem like this before and had no idea how to
    >repair it. Turns out he had back-up so all was solved - or so we thought.
    >The same problem now occurs in 3 or 4 other songs on the same disk as the
    >original file (remembering the original corrupt file had been replaced with
    >a working back-up copy). Now on this disk are songs purchased from BandTrax
    >and also MIDI files my client has obtained from the internet. I suspected
    >that one/all of the internet files are somehow causing the problem, would
    >you agree?


    There are several ways that notes can be made to sustain
    indefinitely.

    Sustain pedal is the first obvious one.

    The envelope release parameter can do a similar thing.

    Note on with no following note off, written for a synth which has
    low enough polyphony *or* limited sustain time on all notes.
    However, this sort of mistake can't carry over to another song -- the
    notes played simply stay on longer than they should.

    Sequencer order of messages may differ from that of the MT80S.
    Computer sequencers can easily put many events at the same time, and
    the program sorts out which one must go out first. Mess up the order
    of note on and offs, and you get messy results.



    The most likely thing is the sustain pedal. Easily used, and on
    some synths, limited in time. A reset between song plays should fix
    that, if it is the cause. For the files which have sustained notes
    holding on too long, you'll need to edit those events to fix that, or
    just note use those particular files.

    >The thing I don't understand - as I don't personally use internet files - is
    >what exactly is wrong with the internet files that would have caused such a
    >problem in the first place? And why would it jump, like a worm, from song to
    >song? As I said to my client, I believe the solution is simply not to use
    >internet files. Can you think of anything that would have caused this
    >problem, and/or any solutions to it?"


    MIDI messages sent will remain in effect until the commands are
    reset. Send a note-on message for an instrument like rock organ, and
    it will play that note forever. Same for sustain pedal, and other
    comands which will extend the playing time of notes.


    >BandTraxs' advice was firstly to clean the MT80S disk drive and take it from
    >there. Any thoughts/suggestions?


    Well, that isn't bad advice, because a read error will cause all
    sorts of problems.

    But after that, try using a computer sequencer to edit the files.
    At the least, since it is Roland GS compatible, stick in a Roland GS
    sysex reset message. That should set everything to the instrument
    defaults before playing.
    --
    *-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
    ** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
    *Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
  4. Kingy75

    Kingy75 Guest

    "SCOOBY DOO" <ScoobyDoo@whereareyou.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:bi6a8t$79r$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
    > Are these hanging notes sustained notes...??? if so the relevant command

    to
    > switch the sustain off may not have been entered hence the

    sticking/hanging
    > notes
    > The easy way to get round this is to enter a CC64 (sustain command) with a
    > value of zero after the offending note should end on the appropriate

    track.
    > Hope this helps
    > Regards............Mark


    Yes, yes, I'm well aware of the that but the notes WEREN'T sustained notes
    to begin with, they were simple quaver or crotchet notes and now all of a
    sudden they stick and hold. See the strangeness of it? It's like a virus has
    infected the file however a virus scan with Norton 2002 reveals no
    infections.

    Kingy75
  5. Kingy75

    Kingy75 Guest

    Hi Jeffrey,
    Thanks for your reply.

    I program MIDI files for BandTrax so I'm well aware of the need for GS/GM
    reset sysex strings at the start of every song. This problem is quite
    virus-like, the notes that now sustain indefintely were originally
    normal-length quavers/crotchets but now have sudden;ly decided to become
    huuge in length. And the fact that it now occurs in other songs on my
    client's disk has me stumped as well.

    We'll clean the MT80S' disk drive ASAP and I'll let you know how we go.

    Cheers,
    Kingy75






    "Jeffery S. Jones" <jeffsj@execpc.com> wrote in message
    news:m6ddkvg0qkk7mqs3hs06vi74tuhcmbu6t3@4ax.com...
    > On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:03:21 +1000, "Kingy75" <kingy75@tpg.com.au>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Hi all,
    > >I have problems again!
    > >
    > >I've encountered a problem that has me stumped. A client whom I edit MIDI
    > >files for brought me a sequence (which he originally purchased from
    > >BandTrax) recently which suddenly started behaving strangely. A few bars
    > >into the song every note stuck & held indefinitely till I hit stop (when
    > >playing the file back on my PC). However on my client's Roland MT80S that

    he
    > >uses to play files at gigs, the only way to stop the sound was to turn

    the
    > >unit off then on again & occasionally his units' stop button would work

    >
    > My first guess is an obvious one -- the sustain pedal was used in
    > the file, without an event following to turn it off.
    >
    > Good practice for all gig files: add a setup measure with sysex to
    > reset, controllers set to reset values. That at least should clear
    > any settings from prior songs played. I don't know if the MT80S
    > offers a 'reset when loading new song' sort of option, but even it it
    > does, it can't hurt to put that info into the file.
    >
    > >I have never encountered a problem like this before and had no idea how

    to
    > >repair it. Turns out he had back-up so all was solved - or so we thought.
    > >The same problem now occurs in 3 or 4 other songs on the same disk as the
    > >original file (remembering the original corrupt file had been replaced

    with
    > >a working back-up copy). Now on this disk are songs purchased from

    BandTrax
    > >and also MIDI files my client has obtained from the internet. I suspected
    > >that one/all of the internet files are somehow causing the problem, would
    > >you agree?

    >
    > There are several ways that notes can be made to sustain
    > indefinitely.
    >
    > Sustain pedal is the first obvious one.
    >
    > The envelope release parameter can do a similar thing.
    >
    > Note on with no following note off, written for a synth which has
    > low enough polyphony *or* limited sustain time on all notes.
    > However, this sort of mistake can't carry over to another song -- the
    > notes played simply stay on longer than they should.
    >
    > Sequencer order of messages may differ from that of the MT80S.
    > Computer sequencers can easily put many events at the same time, and
    > the program sorts out which one must go out first. Mess up the order
    > of note on and offs, and you get messy results.
    >
    >
    >
    > The most likely thing is the sustain pedal. Easily used, and on
    > some synths, limited in time. A reset between song plays should fix
    > that, if it is the cause. For the files which have sustained notes
    > holding on too long, you'll need to edit those events to fix that, or
    > just note use those particular files.
    >
    > >The thing I don't understand - as I don't personally use internet files -

    is
    > >what exactly is wrong with the internet files that would have caused such

    a
    > >problem in the first place? And why would it jump, like a worm, from song

    to
    > >song? As I said to my client, I believe the solution is simply not to use
    > >internet files. Can you think of anything that would have caused this
    > >problem, and/or any solutions to it?"

    >
    > MIDI messages sent will remain in effect until the commands are
    > reset. Send a note-on message for an instrument like rock organ, and
    > it will play that note forever. Same for sustain pedal, and other
    > comands which will extend the playing time of notes.
    >
    >
    > >BandTraxs' advice was firstly to clean the MT80S disk drive and take it

    from
    > >there. Any thoughts/suggestions?

    >
    > Well, that isn't bad advice, because a read error will cause all
    > sorts of problems.
    >
    > But after that, try using a computer sequencer to edit the files.
    > At the least, since it is Roland GS compatible, stick in a Roland GS
    > sysex reset message. That should set everything to the instrument
    > defaults before playing.
    > --
    > *-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
    > ** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
    > *Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
  6. On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 10:56:52 +1000, "Kingy75" <kingy75@tpg.com.au>
    wrote:

    >Hi Jeffrey,
    >Thanks for your reply.
    >
    >I program MIDI files for BandTrax so I'm well aware of the need for GS/GM
    >reset sysex strings at the start of every song. This problem is quite
    >virus-like, the notes that now sustain indefintely were originally
    >normal-length quavers/crotchets but now have sudden;ly decided to become
    >huuge in length. And the fact that it now occurs in other songs on my
    >client's disk has me stumped as well.
    >
    >We'll clean the MT80S' disk drive ASAP and I'll let you know how we go.


    Unless maybe there are some settings which are kept past reset? I
    don't know if the MT80S is a module which has that capability -- I
    wouldn't think so, but it never hurts to check.

    I use a PC player, and I have it set to issue a GS reset before
    playing any file.
    --
    *-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
    ** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
    *Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
  7. Barry Graham

    Barry Graham Guest

    Chris,

    I get that problem often using Cakewalk.
    Could it be some incompatiblity with "running status"?
    Like the note off isn't recognized without a status byte?

    --
    Barry Graham
    Top Brass Events Band
    Melbourne, Australia
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Is it always the same notes/channels that are locking?
    If it's the same prob. but different notes/or tracks each time, it could be
    a data handling error.
    ===========
    Because of the "serial nature" of MIDI seq's (especially if all the tracks
    have been quantized),
    the data stream can get "Traffic Jammed" and then mis-interpreted by the
    sound module..
    (no offense to your equipment is intended here.)
    ===========
    I used to sequence my Lights with a MIDI capable lighting controller.
    Just because it was MIDI capable, didn't mean it was MIDI excellent.
    Some of my Lighting sequences would end with one or two lamps still lit.
    this would only happen after I had "note played" a flashing roll....
    similar to a Jerry Lee Lewis piano-style "glissando"
    ===========
    Maybe the prob isn't with the sequence, BUT maybe the fix is.
    (shyte... 2 "maybe's" in 1 sentence.... this is fast becoming a longshot
    cure)
    ===========
    If the above symptoms ring true, try this fix.....

    Try shifting all the notes in the affected track/s by one or two clock
    pulses. (3 max.) this can help to keep the MIDI events separate in the data
    stream.

    Before we start worrying about the timing inaccuracy, we should remember
    that there are 96 clock pulses per beat... (crotchet)
    This means 3 "clocks" is half a hemi-demi-semiquaver difference. Only a
    human metronome would "feel" one clock pulse out....
    ===========
    good luck.
    --
    Cheers,

    Baggus of ~Oz~

    =========================
    Better to Lose a Lover, than to Love a Loser.
    =========================



    "Kingy75" <kingy75@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
    news:3f46a18b@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
    > Hi all,
    > I have problems again!
    >
    > I've encountered a problem that has me stumped. A client whom I edit MIDI
    > files for brought me a sequence (which he originally purchased from
    > BandTrax) recently which suddenly started behaving strangely. A few bars
    > into the song every note stuck & held indefinitely till I hit stop (when
    > playing the file back on my PC). However on my client's Roland MT80S that

    he
    > uses to play files at gigs, the only way to stop the sound was to turn the
    > unit off then on again & occasionally his units' stop button would work
    >
    > I have never encountered a problem like this before and had no idea how to
    > repair it. Turns out he had back-up so all was solved - or so we thought.
    > The same problem now occurs in 3 or 4 other songs on the same disk as the
    > original file (remembering the original corrupt file had been replaced

    with
    > a working back-up copy). Now on this disk are songs purchased from

    BandTrax
    > and also MIDI files my client has obtained from the internet. I suspected
    > that one/all of the internet files are somehow causing the problem, would
    > you agree?
    >
    > The thing I don't understand - as I don't personally use internet files -

    is
    > what exactly is wrong with the internet files that would have caused such

    a
    > problem in the first place? And why would it jump, like a worm, from song

    to
    > song? As I said to my client, I believe the solution is simply not to use
    > internet files. Can you think of anything that would have caused this
    > problem, and/or any solutions to it?"
    >
    > BandTraxs' advice was firstly to clean the MT80S disk drive and take it

    from
    > there. Any thoughts/suggestions?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Kingy75
    >
    >
    >
  9. dickydoo

    dickydoo Guest

    He said that it has only started to happen ,so it can't be a quantise prob.
    I reckon the disc is suspect.
    <this_one_time@band.camp> wrote in message
    news:3f4708f1$0$14561$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
    > Is it always the same notes/channels that are locking?
    > If it's the same prob. but different notes/or tracks each time, it could

    be
    > a data handling error.
    > ===========
    > Because of the "serial nature" of MIDI seq's (especially if all the tracks
    > have been quantized),
    > the data stream can get "Traffic Jammed" and then mis-interpreted by the
    > sound module..
    > (no offense to your equipment is intended here.)
    > ===========
    > I used to sequence my Lights with a MIDI capable lighting controller.
    > Just because it was MIDI capable, didn't mean it was MIDI excellent.
    > Some of my Lighting sequences would end with one or two lamps still lit.
    > this would only happen after I had "note played" a flashing roll....
    > similar to a Jerry Lee Lewis piano-style "glissando"
    > ===========
    > Maybe the prob isn't with the sequence, BUT maybe the fix is.
    > (shyte... 2 "maybe's" in 1 sentence.... this is fast becoming a

    longshot
    > cure)
    > ===========
    > If the above symptoms ring true, try this fix.....
    >
    > Try shifting all the notes in the affected track/s by one or two clock
    > pulses. (3 max.) this can help to keep the MIDI events separate in the

    data
    > stream.
    >
    > Before we start worrying about the timing inaccuracy, we should remember
    > that there are 96 clock pulses per beat... (crotchet)
    > This means 3 "clocks" is half a hemi-demi-semiquaver difference. Only a
    > human metronome would "feel" one clock pulse out....
    > ===========
    > good luck.
    > --
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Baggus of ~Oz~
    >
    > =========================
    > Better to Lose a Lover, than to Love a Loser.
    > =========================
    >
    >
    >
    > "Kingy75" <kingy75@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
    > news:3f46a18b@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
    > > Hi all,
    > > I have problems again!
    > >
    > > I've encountered a problem that has me stumped. A client whom I edit

    MIDI
    > > files for brought me a sequence (which he originally purchased from
    > > BandTrax) recently which suddenly started behaving strangely. A few bars
    > > into the song every note stuck & held indefinitely till I hit stop (when
    > > playing the file back on my PC). However on my client's Roland MT80S

    that
    > he
    > > uses to play files at gigs, the only way to stop the sound was to turn

    the
    > > unit off then on again & occasionally his units' stop button would work
    > >
    > > I have never encountered a problem like this before and had no idea how

    to
    > > repair it. Turns out he had back-up so all was solved - or so we

    thought.
    > > The same problem now occurs in 3 or 4 other songs on the same disk as

    the
    > > original file (remembering the original corrupt file had been replaced

    > with
    > > a working back-up copy). Now on this disk are songs purchased from

    > BandTrax
    > > and also MIDI files my client has obtained from the internet. I

    suspected
    > > that one/all of the internet files are somehow causing the problem,

    would
    > > you agree?
    > >
    > > The thing I don't understand - as I don't personally use internet

    files -
    > is
    > > what exactly is wrong with the internet files that would have caused

    such
    > a
    > > problem in the first place? And why would it jump, like a worm, from

    song
    > to
    > > song? As I said to my client, I believe the solution is simply not to

    use
    > > internet files. Can you think of anything that would have caused this
    > > problem, and/or any solutions to it?"
    > >
    > > BandTraxs' advice was firstly to clean the MT80S disk drive and take it

    > from
    > > there. Any thoughts/suggestions?
    > >
    > > Thanks,
    > > Kingy75
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
  10. Via Nite

    Via Nite Guest

    I'm no expert on midi but ocassionally I've had similar sounding problems
    with stuck notes. In my case its been either a GS reset problem ( some
    commercial midifiles come with a series of Sysex strings and depending on
    what you play them back on you may have to remove certain strings), or there
    is a buffer problem where there is too much information for the player to
    handle. Possibly due to the number of events involved Pitch wheel events
    can be a problem. These can be thinned out depending on what sequencing
    software you use.

    I'd be interested to know if and how you get around the problem. The idea
    of a virus intrigues me - I was led to believe that midifiles were safe from
    that sort of thing.


    "Kingy75" <kingy75@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
    news:3f46a18b@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
    > Hi all,
    > I have problems again!
    >
    > I've encountered a problem that has me stumped. A client whom I edit MIDI
    > files for brought me a sequence (which he originally purchased from
    > BandTrax) recently which suddenly started behaving strangely. A few bars
    > into the song every note stuck & held indefinitely till I hit stop (when
    > playing the file back on my PC). However on my client's Roland MT80S that

    he
    > uses to play files at gigs, the only way to stop the sound was to turn the
    > unit off then on again & occasionally his units' stop button would work
    >
    > I have never encountered a problem like this before and had no idea how to
    > repair it. Turns out he had back-up so all was solved - or so we thought.
    > The same problem now occurs in 3 or 4 other songs on the same disk as the
    > original file (remembering the original corrupt file had been replaced

    with
    > a working back-up copy). Now on this disk are songs purchased from

    BandTrax
    > and also MIDI files my client has obtained from the internet. I suspected
    > that one/all of the internet files are somehow causing the problem, would
    > you agree?
    >
    > The thing I don't understand - as I don't personally use internet files -

    is
    > what exactly is wrong with the internet files that would have caused such

    a
    > problem in the first place? And why would it jump, like a worm, from song

    to
    > song? As I said to my client, I believe the solution is simply not to use
    > internet files. Can you think of anything that would have caused this
    > problem, and/or any solutions to it?"
    >
    > BandTraxs' advice was firstly to clean the MT80S disk drive and take it

    from
    > there. Any thoughts/suggestions?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Kingy75
    >
    >
    >
  11. McQ

    McQ Guest

    Read about your "mystery".
    Are these notes reproduce-able? I mean, do they occur at the same bars or do
    they come on and off?

    If they occur at the same bars, perhaps you could try to solo individual
    tracks to see which tracks do this and then go into event list on your
    sequencer to have a look see what is happening to those notes.
    You might discover that when in solo mode, the tracks do not have this
    problem, which would then give a clue that other tracks are affecting it,
    then solo a couple of tracks at a time and see which combination of tracks
    do this.

    Without having a look at the file, it's just going to be a wild guess at
    this one. As you seem like a professional MIDI programmer yourself, I
    believe the obvious "CC64" and such are not the cause of this. Someone
    suggested the release could cause this, but to affect release time, there
    would be NRPNs floating around in the tracks somewhere, so it would be good
    to look around using event list.

    My thoughts are that the files have got corrupted somehow along the
    way...but as mentioned, not being able to look at the files would only get
    you lots of guess work! ;-)

    All the best.

    Khew
    "Kingy75" <kingy75@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
    news:3f46bc27@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
    > Hi Jeffrey,
    > Thanks for your reply.
    >
    > I program MIDI files for BandTrax so I'm well aware of the need for GS/GM
    > reset sysex strings at the start of every song. This problem is quite
    > virus-like, the notes that now sustain indefintely were originally
    > normal-length quavers/crotchets but now have sudden;ly decided to become
    > huuge in length. And the fact that it now occurs in other songs on my
    > client's disk has me stumped as well.
    >
    > We'll clean the MT80S' disk drive ASAP and I'll let you know how we go.
    >
    > Cheers,
    > Kingy75

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