OT: newest Fender Vibroverb - is it a PC-board or PTP?

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by Dan Ash, Sep 1, 2003.

  1. Dan Ash

    Dan Ash Guest

    Just wondering whether Fender ads mean this new Custom Shop amp is PTP
    when they refer to 'hand-wired'...

    This amp is a little pricey, but with the switchable Diaz design, it
    sounds as if it might be very versatile for gigs requiring bluesy
    overdrive or others where I need classic clean headroom. My BF Twin
    Reverb w/Altecs is a bit too loud and a bit too clean (and about 15
    pounds too heavy).

    Anybody test-driven this amp?

    Thanks,
    Dan Ash
  2. nuke

    nuke Guest

    << Just wondering whether Fender ads mean this new Custom Shop amp is PTP
    when they refer to 'hand-wired'...
    >><BR><BR>


    It's a tag board, like the old Fenders.

    PTP is what you see in old Silvertones, literally parts twisted together with
    no board at all. So it is not correct to call one PTP unless it has the full
    rat's nest wiring job in it.


    --
    Dr. Nuketopia
    Sorry, no e-Mail.
    Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.
  3. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <20030901160621.06293.00000187@mb-m10.aol.com> larrysb@aol.commode writes:

    > PTP is what you see in old Silvertones, literally parts twisted together with
    > no board at all.


    I hope it's not really that bad. Point-to-point wiring is with wires
    (which may be component leads) between terminals. Those terminals
    could be on tube sockets, pots, switches, or stand-alone terminals
    (which may be a board of parallel rows of studs).

    > So it is not correct to call one PTP unless it has the full
    > rat's nest wiring job in it.


    Point-to-point wiring can be very neat, but it's also nothing to brag
    about. Kind of like toobs today, I guess.



    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  4. meriphew

    meriphew Guest

    I'm pretty sure they're PTP. The older Blonde ones were, and as far as
    I know, the only difference in the new ones is the black tolex.

    _____________________
    Post indie electronic
    Meriphew
    http://www.meriphew.com
  5. Pooh Bear

    Pooh Bear Guest

    Dan Ash wrote:

    > Just wondering whether Fender ads mean this new Custom Shop amp is PTP
    > when they refer to 'hand-wired'...
    >


    Do you think it would sound any different to a pcb based design ?

    If so - why ?

    Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more on
    the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?


    Graham
  6. Dan Ash

    Dan Ash Guest

    >> Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more
    on the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?<<

    My concern is finding an amp that sounds good *and* will last as long as
    my 38-year old Fender. It will no doubt have to survive periodic
    maintenance and repairs, which I heard is more likely with the 'tag
    board' or PTP design. So yes, I do prefer the old mfg techniques.

    As to the cost, it's a lot of $$ but comparable to the other amps I'm
    looking at.

    So - anybody played through one of these beasts?

    Thanks,
    Dan Ash


    Pooh Bear wrote:
    >
    > Dan Ash wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Just wondering whether Fender ads mean this new Custom Shop amp is PTP
    >>when they refer to 'hand-wired'...
    >>

    >
    >
    > Do you think it would sound any different to a pcb based design ?
    >
    > If so - why ?
    >
    > Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more on
    > the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?
    >
    >
    > Graham
    >
  7. nuke

    nuke Guest

    << Do you think it would sound any different to a pcb based design ?

    If so - why ?

    Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more on
    the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?


    Graham >><BR><BR>

    It won't.

    But eyelet boards are very simple to modify and repair. They also have amazing
    longevity even when treated the way guitar amps get treated.

    Sure, PWB's *can* hold up to abuse, but in practice, nobody ever builds a
    guitar amp with a well designed board mounted in a solid, rigid chassis. They
    also aren't nearly as easy to mess with or fix as an eyelet board or true PTP.


    --
    Dr. Nuketopia
    Sorry, no e-Mail.
    Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.
  8. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >Dan Ash wrote:
    >
    >> Just wondering whether Fender ads mean this new Custom Shop amp is PTP
    >> when they refer to 'hand-wired'...
    >>

    >
    >Do you think it would sound any different to a pcb based design ?
    >
    >If so - why ?


    In the case of tube gear, it can sound very different, because of the
    extremely high-Z signals. Parasitic capacitance from the board or from
    the air between junctions becomes a substantial part of the circuit.

    >Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more on
    >the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?


    Hey, I like military terminal board construction myself.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  9. Pooh Bear

    Pooh Bear Guest

    Dan Ash wrote:

    > >> Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more

    > on the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?<<
    >
    > My concern is finding an amp that sounds good *and* will last as long as
    > my 38-year old Fender. It will no doubt have to survive periodic
    > maintenance and repairs, which I heard is more likely with the 'tag
    > board' or PTP design. So yes, I do prefer the old mfg techniques.


    Well - modern components have far longer lifetimes than those used in vintage
    amps, so I wouldn't fret too much about that aspect.

    I've repaired a fair few AC30s for example and invariably maybe 30-50% of the
    100kohm anode load resistors need replacing - and also the awful Hunts 0.01
    uF coupling caps whose 'plastic' body appears to disintegrate and crumble
    with time.

    On that subject - the AC30 uses 'tag boards' and the *are not* particularly
    easy to work on - the lead is usually wrapped round the tag several times and
    it needs delicate attention to remove the parts. Working on valve bases isn't
    great either. In short - working on a pcb is actually much easier.

    Fender's method of soldering components into copper eyelets mounted into
    insulating board is much easier to work on though. I can see the attraction
    there - but doubt you'll need to be replacing components the way it was
    necessary in years of old.

    Graham
  10. Pooh Bear

    Pooh Bear Guest

    nuke wrote:

    > << Do you think it would sound any different to a pcb based design ?
    >
    > If so - why ?
    >
    > Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more on
    > the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?
    >
    > Graham >><BR><BR>
    >
    > It won't.
    >
    > But eyelet boards are very simple to modify and repair. They also have amazing
    > longevity even when treated the way guitar amps get treated.


    Yeah, I'd agree with the eyelet method - it's simple and rugged.

    > Sure, PWB's *can* hold up to abuse, but in practice, nobody ever builds a
    > guitar amp with a well designed board mounted in a solid, rigid chassis. They
    > also aren't nearly as easy to mess with or fix as an eyelet board or true PTP.


    < Wonders if there might be a market here for decently built amps using modern
    methods >


    Graham
  11. Pooh Bear

    Pooh Bear Guest

    Scott Dorsey wrote:

    > Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
    > >Dan Ash wrote:
    > >
    > >> Just wondering whether Fender ads mean this new Custom Shop amp is PTP
    > >> when they refer to 'hand-wired'...
    > >>

    > >
    > >Do you think it would sound any different to a pcb based design ?
    > >
    > >If so - why ?

    >
    > In the case of tube gear, it can sound very different, because of the
    > extremely high-Z signals. Parasitic capacitance from the board or from
    > the air between junctions becomes a substantial part of the circuit.


    In theory that could be the case but actually it can be far better controlled
    by a sensible pcb layout that takes that factor into account ( as it should
    ).

    High-Z rarely means more than 100kohms even in a valve amp ( typical anode
    load resistor ). You'll find bits of IC and transistor circuitry that operate
    at say 10kohm impedance - so the difference isn't actually that immense.

    > >Don't you just love it when manufacturers con you into spending more on
    > >the basis of 'retro' manufacturing techniques ?

    >
    > Hey, I like military terminal board construction myself.


    :)


    Graham

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