OT: The Ten comandments.

Discussion in 'rec.music.percussion' started by NoSheeples, Aug 28, 2003.

  1. Glenn Dowdy

    Glenn Dowdy Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    "morris" <onedropper@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:c153605b.0308281318.37a646c8@posting.google.com...

    > hey, i plugged a hole in a dike from the east village one night !!


    <Joe Piscopo/Danny Vermin voice>

    "Once!"

    </Joe Piscopo/Danny Vermin voice>

    Glenn D.
  2. Re: The Ten comandments.

    On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:28:45 +0000, George Lawrence wrote:

    > The "atheism is a religion" is typical fuundamentalist propaganda. Atheists
    > are not very organized. I was an atheist for a while and it was very hard to
    > find atheist material or orginizations. A basic requirement of a religion is
    > a faith in and dogma about an existing God, afterlife or higher
    > spirituality.
    >
    > Atheism means "lack of belief" in a god. So an atheist is without belief or,
    > in other words, without religion.


    Not really true - Buddhism is essentially atheist at it's core, yet it is
    definitly a religion...although the lay organization (for Nichiren
    Buddhists, at least) is often referred to as the "organization for people
    who hate organizations." :)




    > Most atheists would tell you personally
    > that they do not have an agenda to further separate church and state. But
    > there are some misguided atheists who think it is their purpose in life to
    > prove religion wrong. this particular battle is not one between atheists and
    > Christians. It is between judges doing their job and one who isn't.
    >
    > I am now an agnostic. An agnostic is one who is not committed to believing
    > in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. My personal
    > philosophy is "You don't know, I don't know and neither does anybody else
    > and all religions are just guessing".
    >
    > Another myth is that the ACLU is an atheist organiziation which is a bunch
    > of hogwash. Most of those who work for the ACLU are actually Christians.
    >
    > --
    > George Lawrence
    > George's Drum Shop
    > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > 330 670 0800
    > toll free 866 970 0800
    >
    > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > buy each of his children a drum."
    > -Chinese proverb
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    > news:%Rt3b.3610$EF6.686@news.cpqcorp.net...
    >>
    >> <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    >> news:bilb1s$l7p$1@tribune.oar.net...
    >>
    >> >
    >> > The point you are missing is that Atheism, Secular Humanism etc.
    >> > are ALSO religions! They deal with viewpoints of higher powers.

    >>
    >> I'd like to see some objective opinions on this statement. I know that I
    >> don't agree with it, but that in itself isn't enough for me to dismiss it.

    > I
    >> don't know (of) any atheists who consider their lack of belief a religion.
    >>
    >> > Therefore when the state adopts the symbols of those religions
    >> > and establishes them by LAW they are establishing a STATE religion.

    >>
    >> What symbols? I would think that there are many "real" religions that

    > would
    >> object to having the Judeo-Christian symbolism displayed in a court of law
    >> in the same way that J-Cs might object to a big statue of Ganesh sitting

    > in
    >> the same halls.
    >>
    >> > The fact that the symbols of these religions is the ABSENCE of
    >> > religious symbols doesn't change the argument.

    >>
    >> So everywhere that there are no symbols of religion means that there is a

    > de
    >> facto display of atheism? I guess from a square footage basis we're

    > winning
    >> then, and I guess we get to count all that wilderness that the Lord

    > created.
    >> Since He didn't see it necessary to include His Brand, He must be ceding

    > the
    >> point.
    >> >
    >> > We went through all this here when the Klan decided to put up a
    >> > "Christmas" cross on the statehouse lawn. (No, they didn't burn
    >> > it. :)

    >>
    >> The Klukkers don't burn crosses; they 'light' them. Burning doesn't seem
    >> very Christian, does it? But lighting, well, that's different.
    >>
    >> > Everyone argued like you. That there should be no "religious"
    >> > displays allowed at all. But happily this court discision followed the
    >> > law and determined that the state could NOT interfere with anyone's
    >> > religious displays no matter who they were. So now the Klan cross
    >> > goes up. Some Jewish group always puts up a menorah some other groups
    >> > put up some of their symbols too.

    >>
    >> I've never seen a poster of Ganesh, and he's my favorite Hindu deity.
    >> Something about the ears...
    >>
    >> > The Atheists find the whole thing
    >> > TOTALLY offensive and are still demanding that their symbols (none)
    >> > be made official by the state, but the issue has been pretty much
    >> > settled. The state stays ABOVE the fray!
    >> >

    >> FYI, at the last world-wide atheists convention, we voted to change our
    >> symbol from nothing to " ". We call it The Symbol Formerly Known As
    >> Nothing. tm.
    >>
    >> Look, when you can understand why you don't believe in all the other gods
    >> like Ganesh, Kane, and Zeus, you'll understand why I don't believe in

    > yours.
    >> I'm just a better atheist than you are.
    >>
    >> And another thing: God hears prayer, right? He knows all, so He can make a
    >> pretty informed decision, and He doesn't forget what He's been asked to

    > do.
    >> So if all those fellow Montgomerians pray once to keep the tablet in

    > place,
    >> then either God says okay, or He says no. To keep praying seems to send

    > the
    >> message that God should change His mind (in effect, He was wrong) or that
    >> perhaps He needs reminding. I don't get repeat prayer at all, even if I
    >> believed in the efficacy of the same.
    >>
    >> Glenn D.
    >>
    >>


    --

    peace,

    Rog

    http://www.slammingrooves.com



    Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:

    11. "Get me out of harm's way!"

    10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"

    9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."

    8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this administration."

    7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton! MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"

    6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"

    5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."

    4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."

    3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    transformer.'"

    2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"

    And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of '03...

    1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney. I'm on a
    vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you next
    month."
  3. BKO

    BKO Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    Glenn,

    I'm glad you responded to this. I certainly am uncomfortable with the idea
    that every one is religious regardless of their espousals, and that the lack
    of symbolism is in fact symbolism itself! This argument seems to stretch
    the meanings a tad bit, eh? >:)

    BKO


    "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    news:%Rt3b.3610$EF6.686@news.cpqcorp.net...
    >
    > <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > news:bilb1s$l7p$1@tribune.oar.net...
    >
    > >
    > > The point you are missing is that Atheism, Secular Humanism etc.
    > > are ALSO religions! They deal with viewpoints of higher powers.

    >
    > I'd like to see some objective opinions on this statement. I know that I
    > don't agree with it, but that in itself isn't enough for me to dismiss it.

    I
    > don't know (of) any atheists who consider their lack of belief a religion.
    >
    > > Therefore when the state adopts the symbols of those religions
    > > and establishes them by LAW they are establishing a STATE religion.

    >
    > What symbols? I would think that there are many "real" religions that

    would
    > object to having the Judeo-Christian symbolism displayed in a court of law
    > in the same way that J-Cs might object to a big statue of Ganesh sitting

    in
    > the same halls.
    >
    > > The fact that the symbols of these religions is the ABSENCE of
    > > religious symbols doesn't change the argument.

    >
    > So everywhere that there are no symbols of religion means that there is a

    de
    > facto display of atheism? I guess from a square footage basis we're

    winning
    > then, and I guess we get to count all that wilderness that the Lord

    created.
    > Since He didn't see it necessary to include His Brand, He must be ceding

    the
    > point.
    > >
    > > We went through all this here when the Klan decided to put up a
    > > "Christmas" cross on the statehouse lawn. (No, they didn't burn
    > > it. :)

    >
    > The Klukkers don't burn crosses; they 'light' them. Burning doesn't seem
    > very Christian, does it? But lighting, well, that's different.
    >
    > > Everyone argued like you. That there should be no "religious"
    > > displays allowed at all. But happily this court discision followed the
    > > law and determined that the state could NOT interfere with anyone's
    > > religious displays no matter who they were. So now the Klan cross
    > > goes up. Some Jewish group always puts up a menorah some other groups
    > > put up some of their symbols too.

    >
    > I've never seen a poster of Ganesh, and he's my favorite Hindu deity.
    > Something about the ears...
    >
    > > The Atheists find the whole thing
    > > TOTALLY offensive and are still demanding that their symbols (none)
    > > be made official by the state, but the issue has been pretty much
    > > settled. The state stays ABOVE the fray!
    > >

    > FYI, at the last world-wide atheists convention, we voted to change our
    > symbol from nothing to " ". We call it The Symbol Formerly Known As
    > Nothing. tm.
    >
    > Look, when you can understand why you don't believe in all the other gods
    > like Ganesh, Kane, and Zeus, you'll understand why I don't believe in

    yours.
    > I'm just a better atheist than you are.
    >
    > And another thing: God hears prayer, right? He knows all, so He can make a
    > pretty informed decision, and He doesn't forget what He's been asked to

    do.
    > So if all those fellow Montgomerians pray once to keep the tablet in

    place,
    > then either God says okay, or He says no. To keep praying seems to send

    the
    > message that God should change His mind (in effect, He was wrong) or that
    > perhaps He needs reminding. I don't get repeat prayer at all, even if I
    > believed in the efficacy of the same.
    >
    > Glenn D.
    >
    >
  4. NoSheeples

    NoSheeples Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    >
    >Doug,
    >In all seriousness, you need to ignore Tom. To this day, I do not understand
    >why
    >ANYONE reads any of his posts. The guy has the education level of most 6 year
    >olds. His commenting on the Constitution is laughable. No matter how sound
    >your
    >arguments are to counter, it is a tremendous waste of time.
    >
    >
    >--
    >Robert Schuh
    >"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
    > intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
    > the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
    > the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
    > - Nietzsche
    >
    >"The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >


    You're just a jelous little punk.


    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty is
    a well armed lamb protesting the vote."
  5. BKO

    BKO Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    "Roger Sherman" <coolgrooves@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2003.08.28.22.59.06.138307@hotmail.com...

    > > Atheism means "lack of belief" in a god. So an atheist is without belief

    or,
    > > in other words, without religion.

    >
    > Not really true - Buddhism is essentially atheist at it's core, yet it is
    > definitly a religion...although the lay organization (for Nichiren
    > Buddhists, at least) is often referred to as the "organization for people
    > who hate organizations." :)


    I don't pretend to know much about Buddhism, but I 'think' its contemporary
    practices differ from the teachings of Buddha himself (whatever his name
    was). IIFC he taught that there were no 'gods', but contemporary believers
    substitute idols in their place. In any event, even if your contention
    holds, you haven't shown that all atheists are religious.

    BKO
  6. Glenn Dowdy

    Glenn Dowdy Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    "BKO" <brentolesenNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:%Pv3b.286631$o%2.132980@sccrnsc02...
    > Glenn,
    >
    > I'm glad you responded to this. I certainly am uncomfortable with the

    idea
    > that every one is religious regardless of their espousals, and that the

    lack
    > of symbolism is in fact symbolism itself! This argument seems to stretch
    > the meanings a tad bit, eh? >:)
    >

    It does seem so to me.

    Glenn D.
  7. Joey Furr

    Joey Furr Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    Yeah, but which one?

    --

    ....Joey
    "...so hold the mustard on those flames, y'all." - Aaron Draper

    "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
    news:_wv3b.16395$Ih1.5797035@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
    > I swear by gid and put my hand on a KISS record!
    >
    > --
    > George Lawrence
    > George's Drum Shop
    > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > 330 670 0800
    > toll free 866 970 0800
    >
    > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > buy each of his children a drum."
    > -Chinese proverb
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > news:bilboa$l7p$2@tribune.oar.net...
    > > George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > >
    > > > I imagine the next thing to go will be the swearing on the Bible in

    the
    > > > courtroom which is, of course, just a tradition and not a legal act.

    > >
    > > As far as I know, this is already long gone. Generally speaking,
    > > only Christians are asked to swear on a bible. Those of other
    > > religions with other holy books are asked to swear on their
    > > own book and those following beliefs without holy books are
    > > simple asked to "promise and affirm" (or something like that)
    > > that what they say will be the truth. Of course times change
    > > slowly and I can imagine some courts in the boonies where the
    > > bible thing is still enforced.
    > >
    > > Benj
    > > --
    > > SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

    >
    >
  8. BKO

    BKO Guest

    Linda,

    Do you really think that those who would defend the beliefs of various
    minorities here in the USA are only busy bodies? There are entire
    populations who live here who do not believe in messianic religions. The
    courts must impartially serve them too. With a judge like this, skewing the
    meaning of 'justice' to his own belief system, others must step in to
    correct him.

    I would add that the 'secular' world seems less confrontational and
    disagreeable than the religious. Even RMMP goes along very nicely until
    someone shoves his/her personal religion into the mix, then we have threads
    like this.

    BKO

    "Linda Dachtyl" <lindaleed@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:BB73ADF8.10E39%lindaleed@earthlink.net...
    >
    > I do think you hit the nail on the head....with busybodies being

    threatened
    > by having the Ten Commandments displayed. Maybe they should give those of

    us
    > ALL their money that aren't....because it says "In God We Trust" last time

    I
    > looked;-)
    >
    > However, I can see both sides of this issue.
    > However to go completely secular (and in my opinion that is denying that a
    > spiritual life exists....regardless of faith or philosophy) to be a

    mistake.
  9. Joey Furr

    Joey Furr Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    Glenn-D,
    We could probably quote things at each other and make this another
    incredibly long thread...

    Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence, wrote to his
    friend and signer of the Constitution John Dickenson that Paine's Age of
    Reason was "absurd and impious."

    Charles Carroll, a signer of the Declaration, described Paine's work as
    "blasphemous writings against the Christian religion."

    John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration and mentor to many other
    Founders, said that Paine was "ignorant of human nature as well as an enemy
    to the Christian faith."

    Patrick Henry, too, wrote a refutation of Paine's work which he described as
    "the puny efforts of Paine."

    Many other similar writings could be cited, but these are sufficient to show
    that Paine's views were strongly rejected even by the least religious
    Founders.

    "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of
    Jesus-very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves
    Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their
    characteristic dogmas from what its Author never said nor saw. They have
    compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of
    man, of which the great Reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the
    Jews, were He to return on earth, would not recognize one feature." - Thomas
    Jefferson

    ....but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree and get back to
    drummin'!!

    --

    ....Joey
    "...so hold the mustard on those flames, y'all." - Aaron Draper

    "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    news:N%t3b.3615$gF6.599@news.cpqcorp.net...
    >
    > "Joey Furr" <joeyfurr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:9JGdnRne6fGstNOiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
    > > "Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity... It

    is
    > > rebellion against the authority of a common Father. It is a practical

    > denial
    > > of the extent and efficacy of the death of a common Savior. It is an
    > > usurpation of the prerogative of the great Sovereign of the universe who

    > has
    > > solemnly claimed an exclusive property in the souls of men."
    > > -Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence.
    > >
    > > "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created

    equal,
    > > that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,

    > that
    > > among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." -

    Declaration
    > > of Indepenance
    > >

    > Not necessarily a Christian or even Theist view, especially considering

    that
    > the author was a Deist. Nice Calvininst typo in the last word.
    >
    > Here are some other viewpoints by that same author (Thomas Jefferson)
    >
    > "
    > "I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not
    > find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature.
    > They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent
    > men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
    > burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
    > coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites;

    to
    > support roguery and error all over the earth."
    >
    >
    > "The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for
    > enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a
    > contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in

    fact,
    > constitute the real Anti-Christ"
    >
    >
    > > "The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence,

    were
    > > the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen
    > > could Unite....And what were these general Principles? I answer, the

    > general
    > > Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: . . .

    > Now
    > > I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general
    > > Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the

    Existence
    > > and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as
    > > unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System." - John
    > > Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson
    > >

    > And from John Adams:
    >
    > "Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions,

    Doctrines
    > and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion
    > encumbered with in these days?"
    >
    > and
    >
    > "The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for
    > absurdity."
    >
    > and:
    > Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states: "The Government of
    > the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion"
    >
    > Thomas Paine:
    >
    > In The Age of Reason:
    >
    > "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the

    Roman
    > church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant
    > church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse

    the
    > other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
    >
    > "I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to
    > that book (the Bible).
    > Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one

    worse
    > than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to
    > massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not

    dare
    > so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the
    > Bible).
    > It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God
    > against the evils of the Bible.
    > Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive

    sins...and
    > you will have sins in abundance.
    > The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in

    pretended
    > imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty."
    >
    > James Madison:
    >
    > "What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had

    on
    > civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of
    > political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of
    > the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public

    liberty
    > have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
    > instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clerg"
    >
    > and
    >
    > "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they
    > are mixed together."
    >
    > > That's the whole concept of the Constitution, that your rights come from
    > > God, so men cannot take them away. "All men are *created* equal".

    >
    > Creation does not necessarily imply the Christian God.
    > >
    > > You're techically correct, where Christianity is mentioned by the

    founding
    > > fathers it is outside a legal document, and where faith is mentioned in

    > the
    > > legal documents, the specific word 'Christianity' is not used...but put

    > two
    > > and two together and you still get four.
    > >

    > Poor analogy aside, I have degrees in Mathematics and Accounting. I do not
    > believe that 2+2 always equals 4.
    >
    > Glenn D.
    >
    >
    >
  10. Re: The Ten comandments.

    I think that the concepts of Karma and Rebirth differentiate Buddhism from
    Atheism. These are spiritual principles that require faith; belief without
    proof, and an acknowledgement that their religion knows how the universe
    works beyond empirical evidence. who are they all chanting to anyway? :)

    --
    George Lawrence
    George's Drum Shop
    1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    Copley, Ohio 44321
    http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    http://www.Drumguru.com
    330 670 0800
    toll free 866 970 0800

    "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    buy each of his children a drum."
    -Chinese proverb




    "Roger Sherman" <coolgrooves@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:pan.2003.08.28.22.59.06.138307@hotmail.com...
    > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:28:45 +0000, George Lawrence wrote:
    >
    > > The "atheism is a religion" is typical fuundamentalist propaganda.

    Atheists
    > > are not very organized. I was an atheist for a while and it was very

    hard to
    > > find atheist material or orginizations. A basic requirement of a

    religion is
    > > a faith in and dogma about an existing God, afterlife or higher
    > > spirituality.
    > >
    > > Atheism means "lack of belief" in a god. So an atheist is without belief

    or,
    > > in other words, without religion.

    >
    > Not really true - Buddhism is essentially atheist at it's core, yet it is
    > definitly a religion...although the lay organization (for Nichiren
    > Buddhists, at least) is often referred to as the "organization for people
    > who hate organizations." :)
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > Most atheists would tell you personally
    > > that they do not have an agenda to further separate church and state.

    But
    > > there are some misguided atheists who think it is their purpose in life

    to
    > > prove religion wrong. this particular battle is not one between atheists

    and
    > > Christians. It is between judges doing their job and one who isn't.
    > >
    > > I am now an agnostic. An agnostic is one who is not committed to

    believing
    > > in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. My personal
    > > philosophy is "You don't know, I don't know and neither does anybody

    else
    > > and all religions are just guessing".
    > >
    > > Another myth is that the ACLU is an atheist organiziation which is a

    bunch
    > > of hogwash. Most of those who work for the ACLU are actually Christians.
    > >
    > > --
    > > George Lawrence
    > > George's Drum Shop
    > > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > > 330 670 0800
    > > toll free 866 970 0800
    > >
    > > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > > buy each of his children a drum."
    > > -Chinese proverb
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    > > news:%Rt3b.3610$EF6.686@news.cpqcorp.net...
    > >>
    > >> <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > >> news:bilb1s$l7p$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > >>
    > >> >
    > >> > The point you are missing is that Atheism, Secular Humanism etc.
    > >> > are ALSO religions! They deal with viewpoints of higher powers.
    > >>
    > >> I'd like to see some objective opinions on this statement. I know that

    I
    > >> don't agree with it, but that in itself isn't enough for me to dismiss

    it.
    > > I
    > >> don't know (of) any atheists who consider their lack of belief a

    religion.
    > >>
    > >> > Therefore when the state adopts the symbols of those religions
    > >> > and establishes them by LAW they are establishing a STATE religion.
    > >>
    > >> What symbols? I would think that there are many "real" religions that

    > > would
    > >> object to having the Judeo-Christian symbolism displayed in a court of

    law
    > >> in the same way that J-Cs might object to a big statue of Ganesh

    sitting
    > > in
    > >> the same halls.
    > >>
    > >> > The fact that the symbols of these religions is the ABSENCE of
    > >> > religious symbols doesn't change the argument.
    > >>
    > >> So everywhere that there are no symbols of religion means that there is

    a
    > > de
    > >> facto display of atheism? I guess from a square footage basis we're

    > > winning
    > >> then, and I guess we get to count all that wilderness that the Lord

    > > created.
    > >> Since He didn't see it necessary to include His Brand, He must be

    ceding
    > > the
    > >> point.
    > >> >
    > >> > We went through all this here when the Klan decided to put up a
    > >> > "Christmas" cross on the statehouse lawn. (No, they didn't burn
    > >> > it. :)
    > >>
    > >> The Klukkers don't burn crosses; they 'light' them. Burning doesn't

    seem
    > >> very Christian, does it? But lighting, well, that's different.
    > >>
    > >> > Everyone argued like you. That there should be no "religious"
    > >> > displays allowed at all. But happily this court discision followed

    the
    > >> > law and determined that the state could NOT interfere with anyone's
    > >> > religious displays no matter who they were. So now the Klan cross
    > >> > goes up. Some Jewish group always puts up a menorah some other groups
    > >> > put up some of their symbols too.
    > >>
    > >> I've never seen a poster of Ganesh, and he's my favorite Hindu deity.
    > >> Something about the ears...
    > >>
    > >> > The Atheists find the whole thing
    > >> > TOTALLY offensive and are still demanding that their symbols (none)
    > >> > be made official by the state, but the issue has been pretty much
    > >> > settled. The state stays ABOVE the fray!
    > >> >
    > >> FYI, at the last world-wide atheists convention, we voted to change our
    > >> symbol from nothing to " ". We call it The Symbol Formerly Known As
    > >> Nothing. tm.
    > >>
    > >> Look, when you can understand why you don't believe in all the other

    gods
    > >> like Ganesh, Kane, and Zeus, you'll understand why I don't believe in

    > > yours.
    > >> I'm just a better atheist than you are.
    > >>
    > >> And another thing: God hears prayer, right? He knows all, so He can

    make a
    > >> pretty informed decision, and He doesn't forget what He's been asked to

    > > do.
    > >> So if all those fellow Montgomerians pray once to keep the tablet in

    > > place,
    > >> then either God says okay, or He says no. To keep praying seems to send

    > > the
    > >> message that God should change His mind (in effect, He was wrong) or

    that
    > >> perhaps He needs reminding. I don't get repeat prayer at all, even if I
    > >> believed in the efficacy of the same.
    > >>
    > >> Glenn D.
    > >>
    > >>

    >
    > --
    >
    > peace,
    >
    > Rog
    >
    > http://www.slammingrooves.com
    >
    >
    >
    > Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:
    >
    > 11. "Get me out of harm's way!"
    >
    > 10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"
    >
    > 9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."
    >
    > 8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this

    administration."
    >
    > 7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton!

    MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"
    >
    > 6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"
    >
    > 5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."
    >
    > 4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."
    >
    > 3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    > transformer.'"
    >
    > 2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"
    >
    > And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of

    '03...
    >
    > 1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney.

    I'm on a
    > vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you next
    > month."
    >
    >
  11. Phil Duncan

    Phil Duncan Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    "Roger Sherman" <coolgrooves@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.08.28.22.59.06.138307@hotmail.com>...
    > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:28:45 +0000, George Lawrence wrote:
    >
    > > The "atheism is a religion" is typical fuundamentalist propaganda. Atheists
    > > are not very organized. I was an atheist for a while and it was very hard to
    > > find atheist material or orginizations. A basic requirement of a religion is
    > > a faith in and dogma about an existing God, afterlife or higher
    > > spirituality.
    > >
    > > Atheism means "lack of belief" in a god. So an atheist is without belief or,
    > > in other words, without religion.

    >
    > Not really true - Buddhism is essentially atheist at it's core, yet it is
    > definitly a religion...although the lay organization (for Nichiren
    > Buddhists, at least) is often referred to as the "organization for people
    > who hate organizations." :)
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > Most atheists would tell you personally
    > > that they do not have an agenda to further separate church and state. But
    > > there are some misguided atheists who think it is their purpose in life to
    > > prove religion wrong. this particular battle is not one between atheists and
    > > Christians. It is between judges doing their job and one who isn't.
    > >
    > > I am now an agnostic. An agnostic is one who is not committed to believing
    > > in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. My personal
    > > philosophy is "You don't know, I don't know and neither does anybody else
    > > and all religions are just guessing".
    > >
    > > Another myth is that the ACLU is an atheist organiziation which is a bunch
    > > of hogwash. Most of those who work for the ACLU are actually Christians.
    > >
    > > --
    > > George Lawrence
    > > George's Drum Shop
    > > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > > 330 670 0800
    > > toll free 866 970 0800
    > >
    > > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > > buy each of his children a drum."
    > > -Chinese proverb
    > >

    First of all, "That was beautiful George!" May I add that it is all
    symbols. Language, pictures, emotions,sounds, even touch. Basically
    all of our 5 senses are vaccums of these symbols. If these atheist
    really want to have no symbols, it's cause they do not want anything
    or want to be dead. What they need to do is start loving life and be
    part of the global song and danc that was ment to worship the Creater.
    I call the creater God because through my cultre that is how I
    learned to define the greater. As I grew into a men the Creater
    blessed me and told me his real name! Now I get to talk to him
    anytime the world around me isnt to my senses.Don't even have to pay
    to feel good, use to feel ok, in fact he paid for me to live forever!
    I won't last long on this earth thats for sure,if we do not beleive in
    love. That is weird isnt love a symbol? Does atheism allow man in
    woman to fall in love? Oh i guess thats one of the unspoken rules
    your not allowed to discuss. Remember you are only what your 5 senses
    (in some cases a 6th sense is there, but humans who haven't discovered
    it will never no how to access the other 90% of there brain power)If
    you do not want to take in what was given to you before you we're born
    than you are refusing your birthright. It is your choice to beleive
    in love or not. God is Love

    Phil Duncan
    Mountain West Premium Finance
    Business Development
    888-280-0235
    phil@financepremium.com

    > >
    > >
    > > "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    > > news:%Rt3b.3610$EF6.686@news.cpqcorp.net...
    > >>
    > >> <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > >> news:bilb1s$l7p$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > >>
    > >> >
    > >> > The point you are missing is that Atheism, Secular Humanism etc.
    > >> > are ALSO religions! They deal with viewpoints of higher powers.
    > >>
    > >> I'd like to see some objective opinions on this statement. I know that I
    > >> don't agree with it, but that in itself isn't enough for me to dismiss it.

    > I
    > >> don't know (of) any atheists who consider their lack of belief a religion.
    > >>
    > >> > Therefore when the state adopts the symbols of those religions
    > >> > and establishes them by LAW they are establishing a STATE religion.
    > >>
    > >> What symbols? I would think that there are many "real" religions that

    > would
    > >> object to having the Judeo-Christian symbolism displayed in a court of law
    > >> in the same way that J-Cs might object to a big statue of Ganesh sitting

    > in
    > >> the same halls.
    > >>
    > >> > The fact that the symbols of these religions is the ABSENCE of
    > >> > religious symbols doesn't change the argument.
    > >>
    > >> So everywhere that there are no symbols of religion means that there is a

    > de
    > >> facto display of atheism? I guess from a square footage basis we're

    > winning
    > >> then, and I guess we get to count all that wilderness that the Lord

    > created.
    > >> Since He didn't see it necessary to include His Brand, He must be ceding

    > the
    > >> point.
    > >> >
    > >> > We went through all this here when the Klan decided to put up a
    > >> > "Christmas" cross on the statehouse lawn. (No, they didn't burn
    > >> > it. :)
    > >>
    > >> The Klukkers don't burn crosses; they 'light' them. Burning doesn't seem
    > >> very Christian, does it? But lighting, well, that's different.
    > >>
    > >> > Everyone argued like you. That there should be no "religious"
    > >> > displays allowed at all. But happily this court discision followed the
    > >> > law and determined that the state could NOT interfere with anyone's
    > >> > religious displays no matter who they were. So now the Klan cross
    > >> > goes up. Some Jewish group always puts up a menorah some other groups
    > >> > put up some of their symbols too.
    > >>
    > >> I've never seen a poster of Ganesh, and he's my favorite Hindu deity.
    > >> Something about the ears...
    > >>
    > >> > The Atheists find the whole thing
    > >> > TOTALLY offensive and are still demanding that their symbols (none)
    > >> > be made official by the state, but the issue has been pretty much
    > >> > settled. The state stays ABOVE the fray!
    > >> >
    > >> FYI, at the last world-wide atheists convention, we voted to change our
    > >> symbol from nothing to " ". We call it The Symbol Formerly Known As
    > >> Nothing. tm.
    > >>
    > >> Look, when you can understand why you don't believe in all the other gods
    > >> like Ganesh, Kane, and Zeus, you'll understand why I don't believe in

    > yours.
    > >> I'm just a better atheist than you are.
    > >>
    > >> And another thing: God hears prayer, right? He knows all, so He can make a
    > >> pretty informed decision, and He doesn't forget what He's been asked to

    > do.
    > >> So if all those fellow Montgomerians pray once to keep the tablet in

    > place,
    > >> then either God says okay, or He says no. To keep praying seems to send

    > the
    > >> message that God should change His mind (in effect, He was wrong) or that
    > >> perhaps He needs reminding. I don't get repeat prayer at all, even if I
    > >> believed in the efficacy of the same.
    > >>
    > >> Glenn D.
    > >>
    > >>

    >
    > --
    >
    > peace,
    >
    > Rog
    >
    > http://www.slammingrooves.com
    >
    >
    >
    > Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:
    >
    > 11. "Get me out of harm's way!"
    >
    > 10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"
    >
    > 9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."
    >
    > 8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this administration."
    >
    > 7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton! MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"
    >
    > 6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"
    >
    > 5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."
    >
    > 4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."
    >
    > 3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    > transformer.'"
    >
    > 2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"
    >
    > And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of '03...
    >
    > 1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney. I'm on a
    > vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you next
    > month."
  12. Re: The Ten comandments.

    "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    news:eEv3b.3638$3N6.2578@news.cpqcorp.net...
    >
    > "Mark Rance" <mrr@pcisys.network> wrote in message
    > news:vksa1kn6163v14@corp.supernews.com...
    > >
    > > "Jim" <mesaz00@cableaz.com> wrote in message news:3f4c3f05_1@newsfeed...
    > > > I am not a xtian and am not offended by the concept of the 10

    > commandments
    > > > or displays of it. but I am offended by a judge who acted on his own
    > > > without the cooperation or consent of his fellow justices. Was this

    > > proper
    > > > behaviour? No.

    > >
    > > Why on earth would someone standing up for what they believe, offend

    you?
    > >

    > I can certainly admire that. I can't see allowing judges to blatantly
    > disregard the law based on those beliefs.


    It happens, Glenn, and it doesn't always have to do with religion. For
    example take judges who are hamstrung by mandatory minimum sentencing
    guidelines--they want to give a first-time offender a break, but they have
    no choice. And nowadays it isn't even three strikes you're out; it's one
    strike and you're out. Most of the judges I know (and I know a few,
    socially) think that rule sucks--because a couple judges make
    highly-publicized sentencing mistakes, the legislatures assume no judge can
    be trusted to do his/her job.

    But there's the same problem: a judge whose personal opinion outweighs the
    rule of law. That have to put their personal opinions aside and follow the
    law.
  13. Mark Rance

    Mark Rance Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    "Howard Hess" <hmhess1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:4jvskv0vobjkvhn0oe67jv6tjtffcurqt2@4ax.com...
    > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:05:06 -0600, "Mark Rance" <mrr@pcisys.network>
    > wrote:
    >
    > Mark, about 40 years ago George Wallace stood up for what he believed
    > in, in defiance of a federal order to integrate the University of
    > Alabama. Do you find that offensive?


    I find what he stood for to be quite offensive. I do not find offensive the
    fact
    that he stood for what he believed in (however misguided). I presume the
    distinction is clear...?

    -Mark
  14. Mark Rance

    Mark Rance Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    news:T0u3b.3617$vH6.2400@news.cpqcorp.net...
    >
    > <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > news:bilboa$l7p$2@tribune.oar.net...
    > >
    > > Of course times change
    > > slowly and I can imagine some courts in the boonies where the
    > > bible thing is still enforced.
    > >

    > Like in my hometown of Montgomery. ;)


    and Denver

    -Mark
  15. Re: The Ten comandments.

    George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > The "atheism is a religion" is typical fuundamentalist propaganda. Atheists
    > are not very organized. I was an atheist for a while and it was very hard to
    > find atheist material or orginizations. A basic requirement of a religion is
    > a faith in and dogma about an existing God, afterlife or higher
    > spirituality.


    I don't know where you get the "fundy" slur, but Atheists used to
    be much better organized than they are now. There was a big movement
    in the U.S. back some years and of course it was the official religion
    of the USSR. That it is a religion is no stretch. It clearly is a
    view of the existance of God afterlife and the rest. They reject
    that existance, but it's still an assertion (without any real proof
    like all "faith") of a "natural" explanation of any such.

    > Atheism means "lack of belief" in a god. So an atheist is without belief or,
    > in other words, without religion. Most atheists would tell you personally
    > that they do not have an agenda to further separate church and state. But
    > there are some misguided atheists who think it is their purpose in life to
    > prove religion wrong. this particular battle is not one between atheists and
    > Christians. It is between judges doing their job and one who isn't.


    I agree. The battle between Christians and atheists is not really
    a concern. The concern is when EITHER side attempts to install
    their views with the endoresement of the state. Christians like
    the "America is a Christian Country" argument and Atheists have
    made lots of progress with the "Removal of all other religious
    symbols is just separation of church and state" ploy. The Government
    however is required to stay above the fray and endorse neither view
    as well as not interfere with the practices of any faith.

    > I am now an agnostic. An agnostic is one who is not committed to believing
    > in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. My personal
    > philosophy is "You don't know, I don't know and neither does anybody else
    > and all religions are just guessing".


    Which obviously is a view on the subject of a supreme being, afterlife
    and what have you. It's your personal view and I dare say even though
    it may be just a personal thing with you and you are not a "church"
    with meetings and members etc. It's still by definition a religion
    and hence your right to those views is protected and the gummint
    is also prohibited from endorsing them.

    > Another myth is that the ACLU is an atheist organiziation which is a bunch
    > of hogwash. Most of those who work for the ACLU are actually Christians.


    But most of the lawyers (who do the bulk of the pro-bono legal
    work) are Jewish. The left-wing credentials of the organization
    are pretty well established though. Which is one reason I believe
    they are always quick to jump on the "removal of religious symbols"
    bandwagon. Of course that doesn't make them Atheist. Just supportive
    of that Atheist position.

    Dowdy said:
    >> The Klukkers don't burn crosses; they 'light' them. Burning doesn't seem
    >> very Christian, does it? But lighting, well, that's different.


    <snort> Point well taken! :)

    >> I've never seen a poster of Ganesh, and he's my favorite Hindu deity.
    >> Something about the ears...


    I agree, I'll try to find one for the statehouse lawn next holiday
    season ... If I can remember! :)

    >> Look, when you can understand why you don't believe in all the other gods
    >> like Ganesh, Kane, and Zeus, you'll understand why I don't believe in

    > yours.


    Who says I don't believe in Ganesha, Zeus and the rest?

    >> I'm just a better atheist than you are.


    Says you!

    >> And another thing: God hears prayer, right? He knows all, so He can make a
    >> pretty informed decision, and He doesn't forget what He's been asked to

    > do.


    Yeah, but there is no requirement to answer. Especially if the
    request is stupid or comes from Alabama! :)

    Benj

    --
    SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!
  16. Re: The Ten comandments.

    Robert Schuh <rob@robschuh.com> wrote:

    >> The point you are missing is that Atheism, Secular Humanism etc.
    >> are ALSO religions! They deal with viewpoints of higher powers.
    >> Therefore when the state adopts the symbols of those religions
    >> and establishes them by LAW they are establishing a STATE religion.
    >> The fact that the symbols of these religions is the ABSENCE of
    >> religious symbols doesn't change the argument.


    > This is pure unadulterated bullshit. Do you have ANYTHING to say but
    > bad Rush parroting?


    Sure. Declaration of Independence. Constitution of the United States
    of America. Get copies. Read them.

    > Are you taking your meds?


    Same answer as above.

    Benj
    (Since Rush is mostly a blow-hard, it's unlikely I would parrot
    him...even badly)

    --
    SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!
  17. Howard Hess

    Howard Hess Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:20:49 -0600, "Mark Rance" <mrr@pcisys.network>
    wrote:

    >
    >"Howard Hess" <hmhess1@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    >news:4jvskv0vobjkvhn0oe67jv6tjtffcurqt2@4ax.com...
    >> On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:05:06 -0600, "Mark Rance" <mrr@pcisys.network>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> Mark, about 40 years ago George Wallace stood up for what he believed
    >> in, in defiance of a federal order to integrate the University of
    >> Alabama. Do you find that offensive?

    >
    >I find what he stood for to be quite offensive. I do not find offensive the
    >fact
    >that he stood for what he believed in (however misguided). I presume the
    >distinction is clear...?
    >
    >-Mark
    >

    Yes, it is.
  18. Re: The Ten comandments.

    Robert Schuh <rob@robschuh.com> wrote:

    > Ben,
    > You need help. Why not stop with all the name calling and at
    > least TRY to stop being a Lard Ass Limbaugh clone.


    Oh man. If I set you off I must be scoring points! :)

    And how did "Lard Ass Limbaugh" get into this? I don't recall
    doing any name calling. Didn't stop you though, did it? :)

    Benj

    --
    SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!
  19. in article vDw3b.286939$o%2.132974@sccrnsc02, BKO at
    brentolesenNOSPAM@hotmail.com wrote on 8/28/03 7:55 PM:

    > Linda,
    >
    > Do you really think that those who would defend the beliefs of various
    > minorities here in the USA are only busy bodies? There are entire
    > populations who live here who do not believe in messianic religions. The
    > courts must impartially serve them too. With a judge like this, skewing the
    > meaning of 'justice' to his own belief system, others must step in to
    > correct him.


    Not necessarily in all cases. However, I think the impartial balance you
    mention is difficult to find, however it should continue to be sought in
    each case brought forward.

    One of the things that recently happened in town was a last minute
    cancellation of Handel's Messiah at the arts/music vocational high school in
    the city schools system. Ft. Hayes in Columbus, Ohio to be exact.

    Regardless of one's religious beliefs (or not), this production had gone on
    for years without complaint and was a tradition that was looked forward to.
    Surely, even those without even remotely Christian beliefs recognize the
    value of this work as great music, regardless of how they feel about the
    text.

    The students had put in lots of hard work (obviously) etc....and the
    district decided to go with the very small minority of people against this
    production going on. Columbus City Schools has never been known about having
    a backbone about much of anything else in recent years, based on the
    opinions and experience of many teachers I have known in the system who
    constantly deal with weak administrators. So they back down to this small
    group, ruin the kids program, all because they were afraid of this issue
    being possibly pulled through the courts, I imagine. And this was a couple
    of DAYS before the production was to be performed. If there was a problem
    with this, why was it not addressed long before the teacher and students put
    the work into it? It was not like something that was trying to be "sneaked
    in". It had been a tradition that had gone on for YEARS.

    The students themselves were VERY upset and were very vocal against having a
    substitute program put together at the last minute with holiday "fluff"
    tunes, like "Frosty the Snowman" and other things like this.

    Will this lead to city symphony and opera companies not being able to
    perform works with any reference to religious text if they accept grants
    that are tied in with government funds, not matter how small the dollar
    amount? That would cut out allot of works that could be performed.
    (And the dollar amounts for arts support are not all that great.)

    The Messiah is not like taking out a fundamentalist hymnal and presenting it
    as a concert at a public school.
    >
    > I would add that the 'secular' world seems less confrontational and
    > disagreeable than the religious. Even RMMP goes along very nicely until
    > someone shoves his/her personal religion into the mix, then we have threads
    > like this.


    Probably so, with the exception of things like the Messiah production and
    IMO, the Alabama case.

    I know of many religious busy-bodies, too who think they have all the truth.
    I avoid them like the plague. Just "well-meaning" control freaks, in my
    experience.

    So I am a moderate, I guess. I equally PO everyone;-).

    Linda
  20. Re: The Ten comandments.

    I will accept that atheism and agnosticism are world views, but not
    "religions". Religion can safely be defined in the broadest sense as man's
    expression of his acknowledgement of the divine. Because neither atheism and
    agnosticism acknowledge the divine, they are not religions. They are the
    lack of religion.

    --
    George Lawrence
    George's Drum Shop
    1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    Copley, Ohio 44321
    http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    http://www.Drumguru.com
    330 670 0800
    toll free 866 970 0800

    "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    buy each of his children a drum."
    -Chinese proverb




    <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    news:bims8d$oho$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > > The "atheism is a religion" is typical fuundamentalist propaganda.

    Atheists
    > > are not very organized. I was an atheist for a while and it was very

    hard to
    > > find atheist material or orginizations. A basic requirement of a

    religion is
    > > a faith in and dogma about an existing God, afterlife or higher
    > > spirituality.

    >
    > I don't know where you get the "fundy" slur, but Atheists used to
    > be much better organized than they are now. There was a big movement
    > in the U.S. back some years and of course it was the official religion
    > of the USSR. That it is a religion is no stretch. It clearly is a
    > view of the existance of God afterlife and the rest. They reject
    > that existance, but it's still an assertion (without any real proof
    > like all "faith") of a "natural" explanation of any such.
    >
    > > Atheism means "lack of belief" in a god. So an atheist is without belief

    or,
    > > in other words, without religion. Most atheists would tell you

    personally
    > > that they do not have an agenda to further separate church and state.

    But
    > > there are some misguided atheists who think it is their purpose in life

    to
    > > prove religion wrong. this particular battle is not one between atheists

    and
    > > Christians. It is between judges doing their job and one who isn't.

    >
    > I agree. The battle between Christians and atheists is not really
    > a concern. The concern is when EITHER side attempts to install
    > their views with the endoresement of the state. Christians like
    > the "America is a Christian Country" argument and Atheists have
    > made lots of progress with the "Removal of all other religious
    > symbols is just separation of church and state" ploy. The Government
    > however is required to stay above the fray and endorse neither view
    > as well as not interfere with the practices of any faith.
    >
    > > I am now an agnostic. An agnostic is one who is not committed to

    believing
    > > in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. My personal
    > > philosophy is "You don't know, I don't know and neither does anybody

    else
    > > and all religions are just guessing".

    >
    > Which obviously is a view on the subject of a supreme being, afterlife
    > and what have you. It's your personal view and I dare say even though
    > it may be just a personal thing with you and you are not a "church"
    > with meetings and members etc. It's still by definition a religion
    > and hence your right to those views is protected and the gummint
    > is also prohibited from endorsing them.
    >
    > > Another myth is that the ACLU is an atheist organiziation which is a

    bunch
    > > of hogwash. Most of those who work for the ACLU are actually Christians.

    >
    > But most of the lawyers (who do the bulk of the pro-bono legal
    > work) are Jewish. The left-wing credentials of the organization
    > are pretty well established though. Which is one reason I believe
    > they are always quick to jump on the "removal of religious symbols"
    > bandwagon. Of course that doesn't make them Atheist. Just supportive
    > of that Atheist position.
    >
    > Dowdy said:
    > >> The Klukkers don't burn crosses; they 'light' them. Burning doesn't

    seem
    > >> very Christian, does it? But lighting, well, that's different.

    >
    > <snort> Point well taken! :)
    >
    > >> I've never seen a poster of Ganesh, and he's my favorite Hindu deity.
    > >> Something about the ears...

    >
    > I agree, I'll try to find one for the statehouse lawn next holiday
    > season ... If I can remember! :)
    >
    > >> Look, when you can understand why you don't believe in all the other

    gods
    > >> like Ganesh, Kane, and Zeus, you'll understand why I don't believe in

    > > yours.

    >
    > Who says I don't believe in Ganesha, Zeus and the rest?
    >
    > >> I'm just a better atheist than you are.

    >
    > Says you!
    >
    > >> And another thing: God hears prayer, right? He knows all, so He can

    make a
    > >> pretty informed decision, and He doesn't forget what He's been asked to

    > > do.

    >
    > Yeah, but there is no requirement to answer. Especially if the
    > request is stupid or comes from Alabama! :)
    >
    > Benj
    >
    > --
    > SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!

Share This Page