OT: The Ten comandments.

Discussion in 'rec.music.percussion' started by NoSheeples, Aug 28, 2003.

  1. DaveMohn

    DaveMohn Guest

    I didn't read all 61of these posts for God's sake ; - ) so sorry if these
    thoughts are already documented...

    Couldn't you consider atheism a "religion".It seems to me that some are
    attempting to re-establish the USA as an
    a-thesist country...
    ...."danger Will Robinson!..."
    Isn't the the idea to have freedom "of religion", rather than freedom
    "from religion."

    "...It is better to have a crust of bread, a little soup & some jazz,
    than much feasting with country & western..."

    JDMdrums
    Dave Mohn
    http://www.JDMdrums.com
  2. Re: The Ten comandments.

    Nice try. My dad was a minister. I know the routine. :)
    I take it youare addressing me as an atheist . I am not an atheist but an
    agnostic and if you are going to try to save nonbelievers you should learn
    the difference.

    There are no rules about falling in love for atheists since atheism is not a
    religion but, yes, I know atheists who have fallen in love as well as
    agnostics. Don't think Christians have a monopoly on love.

    As for your profession that God has talked to you, you are lucky you live in
    modern times. In earlier times you would have been brought before the church
    and forced to prove it and put to death if you couldn't. It is only
    recently, in the greater scope of religions' history that anyone other than
    the highest priests of any religion would be considered privy to direct
    communication with God.
    --
    George Lawrence
    George's Drum Shop
    1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    Copley, Ohio 44321
    http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    http://www.Drumguru.com
    330 670 0800
    toll free 866 970 0800

    "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    buy each of his children a drum."
    -Chinese proverb




    "Phil Duncan" <phil@financepremium.com> wrote in message
    news:441bc895.0308282054.7f34088@posting.google.com...
    > "Roger Sherman" <coolgrooves@hotmail.com> wrote in message

    news:<pan.2003.08.28.22.59.06.138307@hotmail.com>...
    > > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:28:45 +0000, George Lawrence wrote:
    > >
    > > > The "atheism is a religion" is typical fuundamentalist propaganda.

    Atheists
    > > > are not very organized. I was an atheist for a while and it was very

    hard to
    > > > find atheist material or orginizations. A basic requirement of a

    religion is
    > > > a faith in and dogma about an existing God, afterlife or higher
    > > > spirituality.
    > > >
    > > > Atheism means "lack of belief" in a god. So an atheist is without

    belief or,
    > > > in other words, without religion.

    > >
    > > Not really true - Buddhism is essentially atheist at it's core, yet it

    is
    > > definitly a religion...although the lay organization (for Nichiren
    > > Buddhists, at least) is often referred to as the "organization for

    people
    > > who hate organizations." :)
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > > Most atheists would tell you personally
    > > > that they do not have an agenda to further separate church and state.

    But
    > > > there are some misguided atheists who think it is their purpose in

    life to
    > > > prove religion wrong. this particular battle is not one between

    atheists and
    > > > Christians. It is between judges doing their job and one who isn't.
    > > >
    > > > I am now an agnostic. An agnostic is one who is not committed to

    believing
    > > > in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. My

    personal
    > > > philosophy is "You don't know, I don't know and neither does anybody

    else
    > > > and all religions are just guessing".
    > > >
    > > > Another myth is that the ACLU is an atheist organiziation which is a

    bunch
    > > > of hogwash. Most of those who work for the ACLU are actually

    Christians.
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > George Lawrence
    > > > George's Drum Shop
    > > > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > > > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > > > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > > > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > > > 330 670 0800
    > > > toll free 866 970 0800
    > > >
    > > > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > > > buy each of his children a drum."
    > > > -Chinese proverb
    > > >

    > First of all, "That was beautiful George!" May I add that it is all
    > symbols. Language, pictures, emotions,sounds, even touch. Basically
    > all of our 5 senses are vaccums of these symbols. If these atheist
    > really want to have no symbols, it's cause they do not want anything
    > or want to be dead. What they need to do is start loving life and be
    > part of the global song and danc that was ment to worship the Creater.
    > I call the creater God because through my cultre that is how I
    > learned to define the greater. As I grew into a men the Creater
    > blessed me and told me his real name! Now I get to talk to him
    > anytime the world around me isnt to my senses.Don't even have to pay
    > to feel good, use to feel ok, in fact he paid for me to live forever!
    > I won't last long on this earth thats for sure,if we do not beleive in
    > love. That is weird isnt love a symbol? Does atheism allow man in
    > woman to fall in love? Oh i guess thats one of the unspoken rules
    > your not allowed to discuss. Remember you are only what your 5 senses
    > (in some cases a 6th sense is there, but humans who haven't discovered
    > it will never no how to access the other 90% of there brain power)If
    > you do not want to take in what was given to you before you we're born
    > than you are refusing your birthright. It is your choice to beleive
    > in love or not. God is Love
    >
    > Phil Duncan
    > Mountain West Premium Finance
    > Business Development
    > 888-280-0235
    > phil@financepremium.com
    >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    > > > news:%Rt3b.3610$EF6.686@news.cpqcorp.net...
    > > >>
    > > >> <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > > >> news:bilb1s$l7p$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > > >>
    > > >> >
    > > >> > The point you are missing is that Atheism, Secular Humanism etc.
    > > >> > are ALSO religions! They deal with viewpoints of higher powers.
    > > >>
    > > >> I'd like to see some objective opinions on this statement. I know

    that I
    > > >> don't agree with it, but that in itself isn't enough for me to

    dismiss it.
    > > I
    > > >> don't know (of) any atheists who consider their lack of belief a

    religion.
    > > >>
    > > >> > Therefore when the state adopts the symbols of those religions
    > > >> > and establishes them by LAW they are establishing a STATE religion.
    > > >>
    > > >> What symbols? I would think that there are many "real" religions that

    > > would
    > > >> object to having the Judeo-Christian symbolism displayed in a court

    of law
    > > >> in the same way that J-Cs might object to a big statue of Ganesh

    sitting
    > > in
    > > >> the same halls.
    > > >>
    > > >> > The fact that the symbols of these religions is the ABSENCE of
    > > >> > religious symbols doesn't change the argument.
    > > >>
    > > >> So everywhere that there are no symbols of religion means that there

    is a
    > > de
    > > >> facto display of atheism? I guess from a square footage basis we're

    > > winning
    > > >> then, and I guess we get to count all that wilderness that the Lord

    > > created.
    > > >> Since He didn't see it necessary to include His Brand, He must be

    ceding
    > > the
    > > >> point.
    > > >> >
    > > >> > We went through all this here when the Klan decided to put up a
    > > >> > "Christmas" cross on the statehouse lawn. (No, they didn't burn
    > > >> > it. :)
    > > >>
    > > >> The Klukkers don't burn crosses; they 'light' them. Burning doesn't

    seem
    > > >> very Christian, does it? But lighting, well, that's different.
    > > >>
    > > >> > Everyone argued like you. That there should be no "religious"
    > > >> > displays allowed at all. But happily this court discision followed

    the
    > > >> > law and determined that the state could NOT interfere with anyone's
    > > >> > religious displays no matter who they were. So now the Klan cross
    > > >> > goes up. Some Jewish group always puts up a menorah some other

    groups
    > > >> > put up some of their symbols too.
    > > >>
    > > >> I've never seen a poster of Ganesh, and he's my favorite Hindu deity.
    > > >> Something about the ears...
    > > >>
    > > >> > The Atheists find the whole thing
    > > >> > TOTALLY offensive and are still demanding that their symbols (none)
    > > >> > be made official by the state, but the issue has been pretty much
    > > >> > settled. The state stays ABOVE the fray!
    > > >> >
    > > >> FYI, at the last world-wide atheists convention, we voted to change

    our
    > > >> symbol from nothing to " ". We call it The Symbol Formerly Known As
    > > >> Nothing. tm.
    > > >>
    > > >> Look, when you can understand why you don't believe in all the other

    gods
    > > >> like Ganesh, Kane, and Zeus, you'll understand why I don't believe in

    > > yours.
    > > >> I'm just a better atheist than you are.
    > > >>
    > > >> And another thing: God hears prayer, right? He knows all, so He can

    make a
    > > >> pretty informed decision, and He doesn't forget what He's been asked

    to
    > > do.
    > > >> So if all those fellow Montgomerians pray once to keep the tablet in

    > > place,
    > > >> then either God says okay, or He says no. To keep praying seems to

    send
    > > the
    > > >> message that God should change His mind (in effect, He was wrong) or

    that
    > > >> perhaps He needs reminding. I don't get repeat prayer at all, even if

    I
    > > >> believed in the efficacy of the same.
    > > >>
    > > >> Glenn D.
    > > >>
    > > >>

    > >
    > > --
    > >
    > > peace,
    > >
    > > Rog
    > >
    > > http://www.slammingrooves.com
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:
    > >
    > > 11. "Get me out of harm's way!"
    > >
    > > 10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"
    > >
    > > 9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."
    > >
    > > 8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this

    administration."
    > >
    > > 7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton!

    MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"
    > >
    > > 6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"
    > >
    > > 5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."
    > >
    > > 4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."
    > >
    > > 3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    > > transformer.'"
    > >
    > > 2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"
    > >
    > > And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of

    '03...
    > >
    > > 1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney.

    I'm on a
    > > vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you

    next
    > > month."
  3. Phil Duncan

    Phil Duncan Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    phil@financepremium.com (Phil Duncan) wrote in message news:<441bc895.0308282054.7f34088@posting.google.com>...
    > "Roger Sherman" <coolgrooves@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.08.28.22.59.06.138307@hotmail.com>...
    > > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:28:45 +0000, George Lawrence wrote:
    > >
    > > > The "atheism is a religion" is typical fuundamentalist propaganda. Atheists
    > > > are not very organized. I was an atheist for a while and it was very hard to
    > > > find atheist material or orginizations. A basic requirement of a religion is
    > > > a faith in and dogma about an existing God, afterlife or higher
    > > > spirituality.
    > > >
    > > > Atheism means "lack of belief" in a god. So an atheist is without belief or,
    > > > in other words, without religion.

    > >
    > > Not really true - Buddhism is essentially atheist at it's core, yet it is
    > > definitly a religion...although the lay organization (for Nichiren
    > > Buddhists, at least) is often referred to as the "organization for people
    > > who hate organizations." :)
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > > Most atheists would tell you personally
    > > > that they do not have an agenda to further separate church and state. But
    > > > there are some misguided atheists who think it is their purpose in life to
    > > > prove religion wrong. this particular battle is not one between atheists and
    > > > Christians. It is between judges doing their job and one who isn't.
    > > >
    > > > I am now an agnostic. An agnostic is one who is not committed to believing
    > > > in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. My personal
    > > > philosophy is "You don't know, I don't know and neither does anybody else
    > > > and all religions are just guessing".
    > > >
    > > > Another myth is that the ACLU is an atheist organiziation which is a bunch
    > > > of hogwash. Most of those who work for the ACLU are actually Christians.
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > George Lawrence
    > > > George's Drum Shop
    > > > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > > > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > > > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > > > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > > > 330 670 0800
    > > > toll free 866 970 0800
    > > >
    > > > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > > > buy each of his children a drum."
    > > > -Chinese proverb
    > > >

    > First of all, "That was beautiful George!" May I add that it is all
    > symbols. Language, pictures, emotions,sounds, even touch. Basically
    > all of our 5 senses are vaccums of these symbols. If these atheist
    > really want to have no symbols, it's cause they do not want anything
    > or want to be dead. What they need to do is start loving life and be
    > part of the global song and danc that was ment to worship the Creater.
    > I call the creater God because through my cultre that is how I
    > learned to define the greater. As I grew into a men the Creater
    > blessed me and told me his real name! Now I get to talk to him
    > anytime the world around me isnt to my senses.Don't even have to pay
    > to feel good, use to feel ok, in fact he paid for me to live forever!
    > I won't last long on this earth thats for sure,if we do not beleive in
    > love. That is weird isnt love a symbol? Does atheism allow man in
    > woman to fall in love? Oh i guess thats one of the unspoken rules
    > your not allowed to discuss. Remember you are only what your 5 senses
    > (in some cases a 6th sense is there, but humans who haven't discovered
    > it will never no how to access the other 90% of there brain power)If
    > you do not want to take in what was given to you before you we're born
    > than you are refusing your birthright. It is your choice to beleive
    > in love or not. God is Love
    >
    > Phil Duncan
    > Mountain West Premium Finance
    > Business Development
    > 888-280-0235
    > phil@financepremium.com
    >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    > > > news:%Rt3b.3610$EF6.686@news.cpqcorp.net...
    > > >>
    > > >> <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > > >> news:bilb1s$l7p$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > > >>
    > > >> >
    > > >> > The point you are missing is that Atheism, Secular Humanism etc.
    > > >> > are ALSO religions! They deal with viewpoints of higher powers.
    > > >>
    > > >> I'd like to see some objective opinions on this statement. I know that I
    > > >> don't agree with it, but that in itself isn't enough for me to dismiss it.

    > I
    > > >> don't know (of) any atheists who consider their lack of belief a religion.
    > > >>
    > > >> > Therefore when the state adopts the symbols of those religions
    > > >> > and establishes them by LAW they are establishing a STATE religion.
    > > >>
    > > >> What symbols? I would think that there are many "real" religions that

    > would
    > > >> object to having the Judeo-Christian symbolism displayed in a court of law
    > > >> in the same way that J-Cs might object to a big statue of Ganesh sitting

    > in
    > > >> the same halls.
    > > >>
    > > >> > The fact that the symbols of these religions is the ABSENCE of
    > > >> > religious symbols doesn't change the argument.
    > > >>
    > > >> So everywhere that there are no symbols of religion means that there is a

    > de
    > > >> facto display of atheism? I guess from a square footage basis we're

    > winning
    > > >> then, and I guess we get to count all that wilderness that the Lord

    > created.
    > > >> Since He didn't see it necessary to include His Brand, He must be ceding

    > the
    > > >> point.
    > > >> >
    > > >> > We went through all this here when the Klan decided to put up a
    > > >> > "Christmas" cross on the statehouse lawn. (No, they didn't burn
    > > >> > it. :)
    > > >>
    > > >> The Klukkers don't burn crosses; they 'light' them. Burning doesn't seem
    > > >> very Christian, does it? But lighting, well, that's different.
    > > >>
    > > >> > Everyone argued like you. That there should be no "religious"
    > > >> > displays allowed at all. But happily this court discision followed the
    > > >> > law and determined that the state could NOT interfere with anyone's
    > > >> > religious displays no matter who they were. So now the Klan cross
    > > >> > goes up. Some Jewish group always puts up a menorah some other groups
    > > >> > put up some of their symbols too.
    > > >>
    > > >> I've never seen a poster of Ganesh, and he's my favorite Hindu deity.
    > > >> Something about the ears...
    > > >>
    > > >> > The Atheists find the whole thing
    > > >> > TOTALLY offensive and are still demanding that their symbols (none)
    > > >> > be made official by the state, but the issue has been pretty much
    > > >> > settled. The state stays ABOVE the fray!
    > > >> >
    > > >> FYI, at the last world-wide atheists convention, we voted to change our
    > > >> symbol from nothing to " ". We call it The Symbol Formerly Known As
    > > >> Nothing. tm.
    > > >>
    > > >> Look, when you can understand why you don't believe in all the other gods
    > > >> like Ganesh, Kane, and Zeus, you'll understand why I don't believe in

    > yours.
    > > >> I'm just a better atheist than you are.
    > > >>
    > > >> And another thing: God hears prayer, right? He knows all, so He can make a
    > > >> pretty informed decision, and He doesn't forget what He's been asked to

    > do.
    > > >> So if all those fellow Montgomerians pray once to keep the tablet in

    > place,
    > > >> then either God says okay, or He says no. To keep praying seems to send

    > the
    > > >> message that God should change His mind (in effect, He was wrong) or that
    > > >> perhaps He needs reminding. I don't get repeat prayer at all, even if I
    > > >> believed in the efficacy of the same.
    > > >>
    > > >> Glenn D.
    > > >>
    > > >>Preface to the King James Version 1611

    (Not Copyrighted)


    THE BEST THINGS HAVE BEEN CULMINATED
    Zeal to promote the common good, whether it be by devising anything
    ourselves, or revising that which hath been laboured by others,
    deserveth certainly much respect and esteem, but yet findeth but cold
    entertainment in the world. It is welcomed with suspicion instead of
    love, and with emulation instead of thanks: and if there be any hole
    left for cavil to enter, (and cavil, if it do not find a hole, will
    make one) it is sure to be misconstrued, and in danger to be
    condemned. This will easily be granted by as many as know story, or
    have any experience. For, was there ever any-projected, that savoured
    any way of newness or renewing, but the same endured many a storm of
    gainsaying, or opposition? A man would think that Civility, wholesome
    Laws, learning and eloquence, Synods, and Church-maintenance, (that we
    speak of no more things of this kind) should be as safe as a
    Sanctuary, and out of shot, as they say, that no man would lift up the
    heel, no, nor dog move his tongue against the motioners of them. For
    by the first, we are distinguished from brute beasts lead with
    sensuality; By the second, we are bridled and restrained from
    outrageous behaviour, and from doing of injuries, whether by fraud or
    by violence; By the third, we are enabled to inform and reform others,
    by the light and feeling that we have attained unto ourselves;
    Briefly, by the fourth being brought together to a parley face to
    face, we sooner compose our differences than by writings which are
    endless; And lastly, that the Church be sufficiently provided for, is
    so agreeable to good reason and conscience, that those mothers are
    holden to be less cruel, that kill their children as soon as they are
    born, than those nursing fathers and mothers (wheresoever they be)
    that withdraw from them who hang upon their breasts (and upon whose
    breasts again themselves do hang to receive the Spiritual and sincere
    milk of the word) livelihood and support fit for their estates. Thus
    it is apparent, that these things which we speak of, are of most
    necessary use, and therefore, that none, either without absurdity can
    speak against them, or without note of wickedness can spurn against
    them.

    Yet for all that, the learned know that certain worthy men [Anacharsis
    with others] have been brought to untimely death for none other fault,
    but for seeking to reduce their Countrymen to god order and
    discipline; and that in some Commonwealths [e.g. Locri] it was made a
    capital crime, once to motion the making of a new Law for the
    abrogating of an old, though the same were most pernicious; And that
    certain [Cato the elder], which would be counted pillars of the State,
    and patterns of Virtue and Prudence, could not be brought for a long
    time to give way to good Letters and refined speech, but bare
    themselves as averse from them, as from rocks or boxes of poison; And
    fourthly, that he was no babe, but a great clerk [Gregory the Divine],
    that gave forth (and in writing to remain to posterity) in passion
    peradventure, but yet he gave forth, that he had not seen any profit
    to come by any Synod, or meeting of the Clergy, but rather the
    contrary; And lastly, against Church-maintenance and allowance, in
    such sort, as the Ambassadors and messengers of the great King of
    Kings should be furnished, it is not unknown what a fiction or fable
    (so it is esteemed, and for no better by the reporter himself
    [Nauclerus], though superstitious) was devised; Namely, that at such a
    time as the professors and teachers of Christianity in the Church of
    Rome, then a true Church, were liberally endowed, a voice forsooth was
    heard from heaven, saying: Now is poison poured down into the Church,
    etc. Thus not only as oft as we speak, as one saith, but also as oft
    as we do anything of note or consequence, we subject ourselves to
    everyone's censure, and happy is he that is least tossed upon tongues;
    for utterly to escape the snatch of them it is impossible. If any man
    conceit, that this is the lot and portion of the meaner sort only, and
    that Princes are privileged by their high estate, he is deceived. "As
    the sword devoureth as well one as the other," as it is in Samuel [2
    Sam 11:25], nay as the great Commander charged his soldiers in a
    certain battle, to strike at no part of the enemy, but at the face;
    And as the King of Syria commanded his chief Captains to "fight
    neither with small nor great, save only against the King of Israel:"
    [1 Kings 22:31] so it is too true, that Envy striketh most spitefully
    at the fairest, and at the chiefest. David was a worthy Prince, and no
    man to be compared to him for his first deeds, and yet for as worthy
    as act as ever he did (even for bringing back the Ark of God in
    solemnity) he was scorned and scoffed at by his own wife [2 Sam 6:16].
    Solomon was greater than David, though not in virtue, yet in power:
    and by his power and wisdom he built a Temple to the Lord, such a one
    as was the glory of the land of Israel, and the wonder of the whole
    world. But was that his magnificence liked of by all? We doubt it.
    Otherwise, why do they lay it in his son's dish, and call unto him for
    easing the burden, "Make", say they, "the grievous servitude of thy
    father, and his sore yoke, lighter?" [1 Kings 12:4] Belike he had
    charged them with some levies, and troubled them with some carriages;
    Hereupon they raise up a tragedy, and wish in their heart the Temple
    had never been built. So hard a thing it is to please all, even when
    we please God best, and do seek to approve ourselves to every ones
    conscience.

    If we will descend to later times, we shall find many the like
    examples of such kind, or rather unkind acceptance. The first Roman
    Emperor [C. Caesar. Plutarch] did never do a more pleasing deed to the
    learned, nor more profitable to posterity, for conserving the record
    of times in true supputation; than when he corrected the Calendar, and
    ordered the year according to the course of the Sun; and yet this was
    imputed to him for novelty, and arrogance, and procured to him great
    obloguy. So the first Christened Emperor [Constantine] (at the least-
    wise that openly professed the faith himself, and allowed others to do
    the like) for strengthening the Empire at his great charges, and pro-
    viding for the Church, as he did, got for his labour the name
    Pupillus, as who would say, a wasteful Prince, that had need of a
    Guardian or overseer [Aurel. Victor]. So the best Christened Emperor
    [Theodosius], for the love that he bare unto peace, thereby to enrich
    both himself and his subjects, and because he did not see war but find
    it, was judged to be no man at arms [Zosimus], (though indeed he
    excelled in feats of chivalry, and showed so much when he was
    provoked) and con- demned for giving himself to his ease, and to his
    pleasure. To be short, the most learned Emperor of former times
    [Justinian], (at the least, the greatest politician) what thanks had
    he for cutting off the superfluities of the laws, and digesting them
    into some order and method? This, that he had been blotted by some to
    be an Epitomist, that is, one that extinguishes worthy whole volumes,
    to bring his abridgments into request. This is the measure that hath
    been rendered to excellent Princes in former times, even, Cum bene
    facerent, male audire, For their good deeds to be evil spoken of.
    Neither is there any likelihood, that envy and malignity died, and
    were buried with the ancient. No, no, the reproof of Moses taketh hold
    of most ages; "You are risen up in your fathers' stead, and increase
    of sinful men." [Num 32:14] "What is that that hath been done? that
    which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the Sun," saith
    the wiseman: [Ecc 1:9] and S. Stephen, "As your fathers did, so do
    you." [Acts 7:51]

    > >
    > > --
    > >
    > > peace,
    > >
    > > Rog
    > >
    > > http://www.slammingrooves.com
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:
    > >
    > > 11. "Get me out of harm's way!"
    > >
    > > 10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"
    > >
    > > 9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."
    > >
    > > 8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this administration."
    > >
    > > 7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton! MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"
    > >
    > > 6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"
    > >
    > > 5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."
    > >
    > > 4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."
    > >
    > > 3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    > > transformer.'"
    > >
    > > 2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"
    > >
    > > And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of '03...
    > >
    > > 1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney. I'm on a
    > > vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you next
    > > month."
  4. Re: The Ten comandments.

    Atheism in the USSR was a political tool used to control the different
    nationalities of the empire. The ideology of Marxism-Leninism made atheism
    the official _doctrine_, not religion, of the Soviet Union, which advocated
    the control, suppression, and the elimination of religious beliefs. The
    soviets identified religion with nationality and their policy toward a
    particular religion depended on the regime's perception of the bond between
    that religion and the nationality practicing it. The smaller the religious
    community and the closer it identified with a particular nationality, the
    more restrictive were the regime's policies, especially if it recognized a
    foreign religious authority such as the pope.

    There are socialist political factions in the U.S. using atheism as a
    doctrine, but atheism in general is not considered an organized religion and
    most atheists are loners. I think you personal belief in conspiracy theories
    is considered a religion though, Ben! :)


    --
    George Lawrence
    George's Drum Shop
    1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    Copley, Ohio 44321
    http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    http://www.Drumguru.com
    330 670 0800
    toll free 866 970 0800

    "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    buy each of his children a drum."
    -Chinese proverb




    <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    news:bims8d$oho$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > > The "atheism is a religion" is typical fuundamentalist propaganda.

    Atheists
    > > are not very organized. I was an atheist for a while and it was very

    hard to
    > > find atheist material or orginizations. A basic requirement of a

    religion is
    > > a faith in and dogma about an existing God, afterlife or higher
    > > spirituality.

    >
    > I don't know where you get the "fundy" slur, but Atheists used to
    > be much better organized than they are now. There was a big movement
    > in the U.S. back some years and of course it was the official religion
    > of the USSR. That it is a religion is no stretch. It clearly is a
    > view of the existance of God afterlife and the rest. They reject
    > that existance, but it's still an assertion (without any real proof
    > like all "faith") of a "natural" explanation of any such.
    >
    > > Atheism means "lack of belief" in a god. So an atheist is without belief

    or,
    > > in other words, without religion. Most atheists would tell you

    personally
    > > that they do not have an agenda to further separate church and state.

    But
    > > there are some misguided atheists who think it is their purpose in life

    to
    > > prove religion wrong. this particular battle is not one between atheists

    and
    > > Christians. It is between judges doing their job and one who isn't.

    >
    > I agree. The battle between Christians and atheists is not really
    > a concern. The concern is when EITHER side attempts to install
    > their views with the endoresement of the state. Christians like
    > the "America is a Christian Country" argument and Atheists have
    > made lots of progress with the "Removal of all other religious
    > symbols is just separation of church and state" ploy. The Government
    > however is required to stay above the fray and endorse neither view
    > as well as not interfere with the practices of any faith.
    >
    > > I am now an agnostic. An agnostic is one who is not committed to

    believing
    > > in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. My personal
    > > philosophy is "You don't know, I don't know and neither does anybody

    else
    > > and all religions are just guessing".

    >
    > Which obviously is a view on the subject of a supreme being, afterlife
    > and what have you. It's your personal view and I dare say even though
    > it may be just a personal thing with you and you are not a "church"
    > with meetings and members etc. It's still by definition a religion
    > and hence your right to those views is protected and the gummint
    > is also prohibited from endorsing them.
    >
    > > Another myth is that the ACLU is an atheist organiziation which is a

    bunch
    > > of hogwash. Most of those who work for the ACLU are actually Christians.

    >
    > But most of the lawyers (who do the bulk of the pro-bono legal
    > work) are Jewish. The left-wing credentials of the organization
    > are pretty well established though. Which is one reason I believe
    > they are always quick to jump on the "removal of religious symbols"
    > bandwagon. Of course that doesn't make them Atheist. Just supportive
    > of that Atheist position.
    >
    > Dowdy said:
    > >> The Klukkers don't burn crosses; they 'light' them. Burning doesn't

    seem
    > >> very Christian, does it? But lighting, well, that's different.

    >
    > <snort> Point well taken! :)
    >
    > >> I've never seen a poster of Ganesh, and he's my favorite Hindu deity.
    > >> Something about the ears...

    >
    > I agree, I'll try to find one for the statehouse lawn next holiday
    > season ... If I can remember! :)
    >
    > >> Look, when you can understand why you don't believe in all the other

    gods
    > >> like Ganesh, Kane, and Zeus, you'll understand why I don't believe in

    > > yours.

    >
    > Who says I don't believe in Ganesha, Zeus and the rest?
    >
    > >> I'm just a better atheist than you are.

    >
    > Says you!
    >
    > >> And another thing: God hears prayer, right? He knows all, so He can

    make a
    > >> pretty informed decision, and He doesn't forget what He's been asked to

    > > do.

    >
    > Yeah, but there is no requirement to answer. Especially if the
    > request is stupid or comes from Alabama! :)
    >
    > Benj
    >
    > --
    > SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!
  5. Phil Duncan

    Phil Duncan Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    phil@financepremium.com (Phil Duncan) wrote in message news:<441bc895.0308282054.7f34088@posting.google.com>...
    > "Roger Sherman" <coolgrooves@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.08.28.22.59.06.138307@hotmail.com>...
    > > On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:28:45 +0000, George Lawrence wrote:
    > >
    > > > The "atheism is a religion" is typical fuundamentalist propaganda. Atheists
    > > > are not very organized. I was an atheist for a while and it was very hard to
    > > > find atheist material or orginizations. A basic requirement of a religion is
    > > > a faith in and dogma about an existing God, afterlife or higher
    > > > spirituality.
    > > >
    > > > Atheism means "lack of belief" in a god. So an atheist is without belief or,
    > > > in other words, without religion.

    > >
    > > Not really true - Buddhism is essentially atheist at it's core, yet it is
    > > definitly a religion...although the lay organization (for Nichiren
    > > Buddhists, at least) is often referred to as the "organization for people
    > > who hate organizations." :)
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > > Most atheists would tell you personally
    > > > that they do not have an agenda to further separate church and state. But
    > > > there are some misguided atheists who think it is their purpose in life to
    > > > prove religion wrong. this particular battle is not one between atheists and
    > > > Christians. It is between judges doing their job and one who isn't.
    > > >
    > > > I am now an agnostic. An agnostic is one who is not committed to believing
    > > > in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. My personal
    > > > philosophy is "You don't know, I don't know and neither does anybody else
    > > > and all religions are just guessing".
    > > >
    > > > Another myth is that the ACLU is an atheist organiziation which is a bunch
    > > > of hogwash. Most of those who work for the ACLU are actually Christians.
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > George Lawrence
    > > > George's Drum Shop
    > > > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > > > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > > > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > > > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > > > 330 670 0800
    > > > toll free 866 970 0800
    > > >
    > > > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > > > buy each of his children a drum."
    > > > -Chinese proverb
    > > >

    > First of all, "That was beautiful George!" May I add that it is all
    > symbols. Language, pictures, emotions,sounds, even touch. Basically
    > all of our 5 senses are vaccums of these symbols. If these atheist
    > really want to have no symbols, it's cause they do not want anything
    > or want to be dead. What they need to do is start loving life and be
    > part of the global song and danc that was ment to worship the Creater.
    > I call the creater God because through my cultre that is how I
    > learned to define the greater. As I grew into a men the Creater
    > blessed me and told me his real name! Now I get to talk to him
    > anytime the world around me isnt to my senses.Don't even have to pay
    > to feel good, use to feel ok, in fact he paid for me to live forever!
    > I won't last long on this earth thats for sure,if we do not beleive in
    > love. That is weird isnt love a symbol? Does atheism allow man in
    > woman to fall in love? Oh i guess thats one of the unspoken rules
    > your not allowed to discuss. Remember you are only what your 5 senses
    > (in some cases a 6th sense is there, but humans who haven't discovered
    > it will never no how to access the other 90% of there brain power)If
    > you do not want to take in what was given to you before you we're born
    > than you are refusing your birthright. It is your choice to beleive
    > in love or not. God is Love
    >
    > Phil Duncan
    > Mountain West Premium Finance
    > Business Development
    > 888-280-0235
    > phil@financepremium.com
    >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    > > > news:%Rt3b.3610$EF6.686@news.cpqcorp.net...
    > > >>
    > > >> <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > > >> news:bilb1s$l7p$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > > >>
    > > >> >
    > > >> > The point you are missing is that Atheism, Secular Humanism etc.
    > > >> > are ALSO religions! They deal with viewpoints of higher powers.
    > > >>
    > > >> I'd like to see some objective opinions on this statement. I know that I
    > > >> don't agree with it, but that in itself isn't enough for me to dismiss it.

    > I
    > > >> don't know (of) any atheists who consider their lack of belief a religion.
    > > >>
    > > >> > Therefore when the state adopts the symbols of those religions
    > > >> > and establishes them by LAW they are establishing a STATE religion.
    > > >>
    > > >> What symbols? I would think that there are many "real" religions that

    > would
    > > >> object to having the Judeo-Christian symbolism displayed in a court of law
    > > >> in the same way that J-Cs might object to a big statue of Ganesh sitting

    > in
    > > >> the same halls.
    > > >>
    > > >> > The fact that the symbols of these religions is the ABSENCE of
    > > >> > religious symbols doesn't change the argument.
    > > >>
    > > >> So everywhere that there are no symbols of religion means that there is a

    > de
    > > >> facto display of atheism? I guess from a square footage basis we're

    > winning
    > > >> then, and I guess we get to count all that wilderness that the Lord

    > created.
    > > >> Since He didn't see it necessary to include His Brand, He must be ceding

    > the
    > > >> point.
    > > >> >
    > > >> > We went through all this here when the Klan decided to put up a
    > > >> > "Christmas" cross on the statehouse lawn. (No, they didn't burn
    > > >> > it. :)
    > > >>
    > > >> The Klukkers don't burn crosses; they 'light' them. Burning doesn't seem
    > > >> very Christian, does it? But lighting, well, that's different.
    > > >>
    > > >> > Everyone argued like you. That there should be no "religious"
    > > >> > displays allowed at all. But happily this court discision followed the
    > > >> > law and determined that the state could NOT interfere with anyone's
    > > >> > religious displays no matter who they were. So now the Klan cross
    > > >> > goes up. Some Jewish group always puts up a menorah some other groups
    > > >> > put up some of their symbols too.
    > > >>
    > > >> I've never seen a poster of Ganesh, and he's my favorite Hindu deity.
    > > >> Something about the ears...
    > > >>
    > > >> > The Atheists find the whole thing
    > > >> > TOTALLY offensive and are still demanding that their symbols (none)
    > > >> > be made official by the state, but the issue has been pretty much
    > > >> > settled. The state stays ABOVE the fray!
    > > >> >
    > > >> FYI, at the last world-wide atheists convention, we voted to change our
    > > >> symbol from nothing to " ". We call it The Symbol Formerly Known As
    > > >> Nothing. tm.
    > > >>
    > > >> Look, when you can understand why you don't believe in all the other gods
    > > >> like Ganesh, Kane, and Zeus, you'll understand why I don't believe in

    > yours.
    > > >> I'm just a better atheist than you are.
    > > >>
    > > >> And another thing: God hears prayer, right? He knows all, so He can make a
    > > >> pretty informed decision, and He doesn't forget what He's been asked to

    > do.
    > > >> So if all those fellow Montgomerians pray once to keep the tablet in

    > place,
    > > >> then either God says okay, or He says no. To keep praying seems to send

    > the
    > > >> message that God should change His mind (in effect, He was wrong) or that
    > > >> perhaps He needs reminding. I don't get repeat prayer at all, even if I
    > > >> believed in the efficacy of the same.
    > > >>
    > > >> Glenn D.
    > > >>
    > > >>

    > >
    > > --
    > >
    > > peace,
    > >
    > > Rog
    > >
    > > http://www.slammingrooves.com
    > >
    > > Preface to the King James Version 1611

    (Not Copyrighted)


    THE BEST THINGS HAVE BEEN CULMINATED
    Zeal to promote the common good, whether it be by devising anything
    ourselves, or revising that which hath been laboured by others,
    deserveth certainly much respect and esteem, but yet findeth but cold
    entertainment in the world. It is welcomed with suspicion instead of
    love, and with emulation instead of thanks: and if there be any hole
    left for cavil to enter, (and cavil, if it do not find a hole, will
    make one) it is sure to be misconstrued, and in danger to be
    condemned. This will easily be granted by as many as know story, or
    have any experience. For, was there ever any-projected, that savoured
    any way of newness or renewing, but the same endured many a storm of
    gainsaying, or opposition? A man would think that Civility, wholesome
    Laws, learning and eloquence, Synods, and Church-maintenance, (that we
    speak of no more things of this kind) should be as safe as a
    Sanctuary, and out of shot, as they say, that no man would lift up the
    heel, no, nor dog move his tongue against the motioners of them. For
    by the first, we are distinguished from brute beasts lead with
    sensuality; By the second, we are bridled and restrained from
    outrageous behaviour, and from doing of injuries, whether by fraud or
    by violence; By the third, we are enabled to inform and reform others,
    by the light and feeling that we have attained unto ourselves;
    Briefly, by the fourth being brought together to a parley face to
    face, we sooner compose our differences than by writings which are
    endless; And lastly, that the Church be sufficiently provided for, is
    so agreeable to good reason and conscience, that those mothers are
    holden to be less cruel, that kill their children as soon as they are
    born, than those nursing fathers and mothers (wheresoever they be)
    that withdraw from them who hang upon their breasts (and upon whose
    breasts again themselves do hang to receive the Spiritual and sincere
    milk of the word) livelihood and support fit for their estates. Thus
    it is apparent, that these things which we speak of, are of most
    necessary use, and therefore, that none, either without absurdity can
    speak against them, or without note of wickedness can spurn against
    them.

    Yet for all that, the learned know that certain worthy men [Anacharsis
    with others] have been brought to untimely death for none other fault,
    but for seeking to reduce their Countrymen to god order and
    discipline; and that in some Commonwealths [e.g. Locri] it was made a
    capital crime, once to motion the making of a new Law for the
    abrogating of an old, though the same were most pernicious; And that
    certain [Cato the elder], which would be counted pillars of the State,
    and patterns of Virtue and Prudence, could not be brought for a long
    time to give way to good Letters and refined speech, but bare
    themselves as averse from them, as from rocks or boxes of poison; And
    fourthly, that he was no babe, but a great clerk [Gregory the Divine],
    that gave forth (and in writing to remain to posterity) in passion
    peradventure, but yet he gave forth, that he had not seen any profit
    to come by any Synod, or meeting of the Clergy, but rather the
    contrary; And lastly, against Church-maintenance and allowance, in
    such sort, as the Ambassadors and messengers of the great King of
    Kings should be furnished, it is not unknown what a fiction or fable
    (so it is esteemed, and for no better by the reporter himself
    [Nauclerus], though superstitious) was devised; Namely, that at such a
    time as the professors and teachers of Christianity in the Church of
    Rome, then a true Church, were liberally endowed, a voice forsooth was
    heard from heaven, saying: Now is poison poured down into the Church,
    etc. Thus not only as oft as we speak, as one saith, but also as oft
    as we do anything of note or consequence, we subject ourselves to
    everyone's censure, and happy is he that is least tossed upon tongues;
    for utterly to escape the snatch of them it is impossible. If any man
    conceit, that this is the lot and portion of the meaner sort only, and
    that Princes are privileged by their high estate, he is deceived. "As
    the sword devoureth as well one as the other," as it is in Samuel [2
    Sam 11:25], nay as the great Commander charged his soldiers in a
    certain battle, to strike at no part of the enemy, but at the face;
    And as the King of Syria commanded his chief Captains to "fight
    neither with small nor great, save only against the King of Israel:"
    [1 Kings 22:31] so it is too true, that Envy striketh most spitefully
    at the fairest, and at the chiefest. David was a worthy Prince, and no
    man to be compared to him for his first deeds, and yet for as worthy
    as act as ever he did (even for bringing back the Ark of God in
    solemnity) he was scorned and scoffed at by his own wife [2 Sam 6:16].
    Solomon was greater than David, though not in virtue, yet in power:
    and by his power and wisdom he built a Temple to the Lord, such a one
    as was the glory of the land of Israel, and the wonder of the whole
    world. But was that his magnificence liked of by all? We doubt it.
    Otherwise, why do they lay it in his son's dish, and call unto him for
    easing the burden, "Make", say they, "the grievous servitude of thy
    father, and his sore yoke, lighter?" [1 Kings 12:4] Belike he had
    charged them with some levies, and troubled them with some carriages;
    Hereupon they raise up a tragedy, and wish in their heart the Temple
    had never been built. So hard a thing it is to please all, even when
    we please God best, and do seek to approve ourselves to every ones
    conscience.

    If we will descend to later times, we shall find many the like
    examples of such kind, or rather unkind acceptance. The first Roman
    Emperor [C. Caesar. Plutarch] did never do a more pleasing deed to the
    learned, nor more profitable to posterity, for conserving the record
    of times in true supputation; than when he corrected the Calendar, and
    ordered the year according to the course of the Sun; and yet this was
    imputed to him for novelty, and arrogance, and procured to him great
    obloguy. So the first Christened Emperor [Constantine] (at the least-
    wise that openly professed the faith himself, and allowed others to do
    the like) for strengthening the Empire at his great charges, and pro-
    viding for the Church, as he did, got for his labour the name
    Pupillus, as who would say, a wasteful Prince, that had need of a
    Guardian or overseer [Aurel. Victor]. So the best Christened Emperor
    [Theodosius], for the love that he bare unto peace, thereby to enrich
    both himself and his subjects, and because he did not see war but find
    it, was judged to be no man at arms [Zosimus], (though indeed he
    excelled in feats of chivalry, and showed so much when he was
    provoked) and con- demned for giving himself to his ease, and to his
    pleasure. To be short, the most learned Emperor of former times
    [Justinian], (at the least, the greatest politician) what thanks had
    he for cutting off the superfluities of the laws, and digesting them
    into some order and method? This, that he had been blotted by some to
    be an Epitomist, that is, one that extinguishes worthy whole volumes,
    to bring his abridgments into request. This is the measure that hath
    been rendered to excellent Princes in former times, even, Cum bene
    facerent, male audire, For their good deeds to be evil spoken of.
    Neither is there any likelihood, that envy and malignity died, and
    were buried with the ancient. No, no, the reproof of Moses taketh hold
    of most ages; "You are risen up in your fathers' stead, and increase
    of sinful men." [Num 32:14] "What is that that hath been done? that
    which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the Sun," saith
    the wiseman: [Ecc 1:9] and S. Stephen, "As your fathers did, so do
    you." [Acts 7:51]

    > >
    > > Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:
    > >
    > > 11. "Get me out of harm's way!"
    > >
    > > 10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"
    > >
    > > 9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."
    > >
    > > 8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this administration."
    > >
    > > 7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton! MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"
    > >
    > > 6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"
    > >
    > > 5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."
    > >
    > > 4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."
    > >
    > > 3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    > > transformer.'"
    > >
    > > 2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"
    > >
    > > And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of '03...
    > >
    > > 1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney. I'm on a
    > > vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you next
    > > month."
  6. BKO

    BKO Guest

    Linda,

    I make a distinction between the court house and the concert hall, but I do
    agree with most of your points and can sympathize with the kids and the
    community. The hubris of the zealots makes everyone suffer.

    BKO

    "Linda Dachtyl" <lindaleed@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:BB74BC2B.10F46%lindaleed@earthlink.net...
    > in article vDw3b.286939$o%2.132974@sccrnsc02, BKO at
    > brentolesenNOSPAM@hotmail.com wrote on 8/28/03 7:55 PM:
    >
    > > Linda,
    > >
    > > Do you really think that those who would defend the beliefs of various
    > > minorities here in the USA are only busy bodies? There are entire
    > > populations who live here who do not believe in messianic religions.

    The
    > > courts must impartially serve them too. With a judge like this, skewing

    the
    > > meaning of 'justice' to his own belief system, others must step in to
    > > correct him.

    >
    > Not necessarily in all cases. However, I think the impartial balance you
    > mention is difficult to find, however it should continue to be sought in
    > each case brought forward.
    >
    > One of the things that recently happened in town was a last minute
    > cancellation of Handel's Messiah at the arts/music vocational high school

    in
    > the city schools system. Ft. Hayes in Columbus, Ohio to be exact.
    >
    > Regardless of one's religious beliefs (or not), this production had gone

    on
    > for years without complaint and was a tradition that was looked forward

    to.
    > Surely, even those without even remotely Christian beliefs recognize the
    > value of this work as great music, regardless of how they feel about the
    > text.
    >
    > The students had put in lots of hard work (obviously) etc....and the
    > district decided to go with the very small minority of people against this
    > production going on. Columbus City Schools has never been known about

    having
    > a backbone about much of anything else in recent years, based on the
    > opinions and experience of many teachers I have known in the system who
    > constantly deal with weak administrators. So they back down to this small
    > group, ruin the kids program, all because they were afraid of this issue
    > being possibly pulled through the courts, I imagine. And this was a couple
    > of DAYS before the production was to be performed. If there was a problem
    > with this, why was it not addressed long before the teacher and students

    put
    > the work into it? It was not like something that was trying to be "sneaked
    > in". It had been a tradition that had gone on for YEARS.
    >
    > The students themselves were VERY upset and were very vocal against having

    a
    > substitute program put together at the last minute with holiday "fluff"
    > tunes, like "Frosty the Snowman" and other things like this.
    >
    > Will this lead to city symphony and opera companies not being able to
    > perform works with any reference to religious text if they accept grants
    > that are tied in with government funds, not matter how small the dollar
    > amount? That would cut out allot of works that could be performed.
    > (And the dollar amounts for arts support are not all that great.)
    >
    > The Messiah is not like taking out a fundamentalist hymnal and presenting

    it
    > as a concert at a public school.
    > >
    > > I would add that the 'secular' world seems less confrontational and
    > > disagreeable than the religious. Even RMMP goes along very nicely until
    > > someone shoves his/her personal religion into the mix, then we have

    threads
    > > like this.

    >
    > Probably so, with the exception of things like the Messiah production and
    > IMO, the Alabama case.
    >
    > I know of many religious busy-bodies, too who think they have all the

    truth.
    > I avoid them like the plague. Just "well-meaning" control freaks, in my
    > experience.
    >
    > So I am a moderate, I guess. I equally PO everyone;-).
    >
    > Linda
    >
  7. Re: The Ten comandments.

    Phil Duncan cut and pasted:

    > THE BEST THINGS HAVE BEEN CULMINATED
    > Zeal to promote the common good, whether it be by devising anything
    > ourselves, or revising that which hath been laboured by others,
    > deserveth certainly much respect and esteem, but yet findeth but cold
    > entertainment in the world


    (snipped lest we all die from too many "forsooths")

    What is this? Internet Proselytizing Cut and Paste 101? and the King's
    English at that!

    If you like that. You'll really like this:

    FOX:
    Lo, some socks!

    KNOX:
    Behold, a box!
    'Tis now struck twelve, get thee to socks, Fox.

    FOX:
    For this relief much thanks, 'tis bitter cold
    And I am Fox in socks.

    KNOX:
    Well, good night. I am Knox in box.

    FOX:
    Friends to the ground, and liegemen to the Dane.
    Knox on Fox in socks in box.

    [Enter GHOST.]

    KNOX:
    Peace, break thee off. Look where it comes again.

    FOX:
    In the same figure, socks on Knox and Knox in box.

    KNOX:
    It would be spoke to. Question it, Fox.

    FOX:
    What art thou that usurp'st this time of night,
    Together with Fox in socks on box on Knox?

    KNOX:
    It is offended. See, it stalks away.

    [Exit GHOST.]

    FOX:
    We do it wrong being so majestical.

    [Exeunt.]


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----

    ACT 1, Scene 2

    [Flourish. Enter FOX and KNOX.]

    FOX:
    What, ho! Chicks with bricks come.

    [Enter CHICKS with bricks.]

    KNOX:
    Peace, break thee off. Look where chicks with blocks come.

    [Enter CHICKS with blocks.]

    FOX:
    But soft, behold, lo where chicks come again!
    Chicks with bricks and blocks and clocks come.

    [Enter CHICKS with bricks and blocks and clocks.]

    Mark me, mark me, my lord Knox, sir.
    Let us hold watch with bricks and blocks, sir.
    Let us have after with chicks and clocks, sir.
    A mote is to trouble the mind's eye,
    In the most high quick trick brick stack,
    A little ere the mightiest Julius fell
    As stars with trains of fire from a quick trick block stack.
    What if it tempt you toward the flood my lord,
    Or to the dreadful summit of a quick trick chick stack,
    That beetles o'er his base into the sea,
    And there assume some quick trick clock stack?
    My fate cries out, my lord Knox,
    Socks on chicks and chicks on Fox.

    [Enter GHOST.]

    Angels and ministers of grace defend us!
    Be thou a spirit of Fox on clocks on bricks and blocks,
    Or goblin damned with bricks and blocks on Knox on box,
    Bring with thee ticks from heaven or tocks from hell,
    Let my lord Knox not burst in ignorance but tell:
    Clocks on Fox tick, clocks on Knox tock.

    KNOX:
    Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

    [Exit GHOST.]

    FOX:
    O that these too too solid six sick bricks would tick,
    Thaw and resolve these six sick chicks which tock.

    KNOX:
    Prithee, sir. I don't like this trick, sir.
    How weary, stale, flat and unprofitable
    Seems to me the quickness and slickness of my tongue!
    Fie on't, ah fie, I get all those ticks and tocks, sir,
    Mixed up with the chicks and tocks, sir.
    It is not, nor it cannot come to good, Fox, sir.

    FOX:
    A truant disposition, good my lord.

    [Exeunt.]


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----

    ACT 2, Scene 1

    [Enter FOX and KNOX.]

    FOX:
    How now, such wanton, wild, and usual slips
    As are companions noted and most known
    To youth and liberty.

    KNOX:
    As gaming, my lord?

    FOX:
    Ay, 'tis an easy game to play,
    An easy thing to say -- you may go so far.
    Soft now -- new socks, two socks, whose socks?

    [Enter SUE.]

    The fair Sue -- Nymph, in thy orisons
    Be all my socks remembered.

    SUE:
    Good my lord,
    How does your sewing for this many a socks?

    FOX:
    I humbly thank you.

    [To KNOX:]
    Sue sews Sue's socks.

    SUE:
    My lord, I have remembrances of yours.
    Who sees who sew whose new socks, my lord?

    FOX: [To KNOX:]
    You see Sue sew Sue's new socks, my lord.

    KNOX:
    Marry sir, here's my drift,
    'Tis not easy, my lord Fox.

    [Exeunt.]


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----

    ACT 2, Scene 2

    [Enter FOX, KNOX, and SUE.]

    KNOX:
    Hark now! Who comes here?

    [Enter SLOW JOE CROW.]

    FOX:
    Crow comes. Welcome dear Slow Joe Crow!
    Moreover that we much did long to see you,
    The need we have to use you did provoke
    Our hasty sending. Who sew's crow's clothes?

    CROW:
    Your majesty might by sovereign power
    Put your dread pleasures more into command
    Than to entreaty: Sue sews crow's clothes.

    FOX:
    Thanks Slow Joe Crow, and I beseech you
    Instantly to sew whose clothes?

    CROW:
    Sue's clothes.

    FOX:
    Thou still hast been the father of good news.

    CROW:
    Have I my lord? Assure you, my good liege,
    Sue sews socks of Fox in socks now.

    FOX:
    Oh speak of that, that do I long to hear;
    Slow Joe Crow sews Knox in box now.
    Give first admittance to th'ambassadors:
    Sue sews rose on Slow Joe Crow's clothes.

    SUE:
    My news shall be the fruit to that great feast:
    Fox sews hose on Slow Joe Crow's nose.

    FOX:
    I would fain prove that this hose goes,
    When I had seen that this rose grows --
    As I perceived it, I must tell you that
    Nose hose goes some -- what might you think
    Had I looked upon crow's rose growing some?

    KNOX:
    Ay so, God bye to you, my lord Fox.
    O what a rogue and peasant slave am I!
    Is it not monstrous that this player here
    Hates this game, in a dream of passion,
    Could force not his tongue to his own conceit
    That from her working all his visage wanned,
    Tears in his eyes, distraction in's aspect,
    A lame tongue, and his whole function suiting
    With forms to his conceit? And all for nothing?

    FOX:
    My lord Knox, the play's the thing
    Wherein your tongue shall consent to sing.

    [Exeunt.]


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----

    ACT 3, Scene 1

    [Enter FOX, KNOX, and GOO-GOOSE.]

    FOX:
    And can you by no drift of circumstance
    Find something new to do now?
    With all my heart, and it doth much content me,
    Here is lots of new blue goo now.
    'Tis now the very goo of night,
    When churchyards yawn, and hell itself breathes out
    Blue goo to this world. Now could I drink hot goo,
    And do such gooey, gooey business as the day
    Would quake to look on. Soft, now to my blue goo.
    O heart, lose not thy new goo; let not ever
    The soul of Nero enter this gluey, gluey bosom.
    Give me that gooey goo which is chewy chewing's slave,
    And I will chew him in my heart's core,
    Ay in my heart of heart, as that Goo-Goose is doing.
    I prithee when thou chewst that goo, my lord,
    That thou choosest to chew thy goo with the
    Very chewing of the Goo-Goose, do, my lord.

    KNOX:
    My lord Fox, oh this goo is rank,
    It smells to heaven; it hath the primal
    Eldest curse upon't. Say it can I not,
    Though inclination be sharp as will,
    I stand in pause where I shall first chew.

    FOX:
    My lord doth protest too much methinks.
    Let us find another game to play.

    [Exeunt.]


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----

    ACT 3, Scene 2

    [Enter FOX and KNOX.]

    FOX:
    Hark, Bim comes!

    [Enter BIM.]

    Ho, Ben comes!

    [Enter BEN.]

    BIM:
    I hast Ben broom.

    BEN:
    I hast Bim broom.

    FOX:
    Look here upon this picture, and on this,
    The counterfeit presentment of two brothers.
    See what a broom was bent by Ben;
    Bim's bends, the broom of Ben himself
    Is bent by Bim, to bend and break;
    A broom like Bim's, new-bent by Ben
    Is broken where every god did seem to bend.

    [Flourish. Danish March (trumpets and kettle-drums). Enter PIGS attendant.]

    This is Ben's band. Look you now what follows.
    Here is Bim's band, like a big band,
    Yea a pig band. Have you eyes?
    Could you leave Bim and Ben to lead
    These bands with brooms? What judgement
    Would step from Ben's band banging
    To sense th'ecstasy of Bim's band booming?

    KNOX:
    Oh what a noble tongue is here o'erthrown!
    The pig band, boom band, big band, broom band,
    Th'expectancy and rose of my poor mouth,
    The glass of fashion it cannot say,
    Th'observed of all observers, quite, quite down,
    And my poor mouth most deject and wretched.

    FOX:
    Indeed, this mouth is now most still, most grave.
    Come sir, to draw toward an end with you.

    [Exeunt.]


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----

    ACT 4, Scene 1

    [Enter FOX, KNOX, LUKE LUCK, and DUCK.]

    FOX:
    How now, Luke Luck. Dost thou like lakes?

    LUKE:
    Verily, my lord.

    FOX:
    Dost thy duck like lakes?

    LUKE:
    Truly to speak, and with no addition,
    We go to lick a little patch of lake
    That hath in it no profit but the name.

    FOX:
    Why then, thou lick'st lakes.

    LUKE:
    Ay, and my duck also lick'st lakes.

    FOX: [To KNOX:]

    Two thousand lakes and twenty thousand licks
    Will not debate the question of which lake
    Luke Luck's duck postures to lick;
    This is th'lake oft liked by Luke Luck.
    How all occasions do inform that Luke Luck
    Takes licks in lakes liked by duck.

    KNOX:
    Witness this army of such blibber and blubber,
    Blabbed not by a delicate and tender tongue,
    Whose spirit be not made of rubber!

    FOX:
    Too much of water hast thou, poor Knox,
    And therefore I forbid my tears. But yet,
    Thou dost not have to be so dumb, my lord Knox.

    [Exeunt.]


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----

    ACT 4, Scene 2

    [Enter FOX and KNOX.]

    FOX:
    Try to say this my lord Knox, prithee --
    Through three cheese trees, or not through three cheese trees,
    That is the question -- whether 'tis nobler
    In the trees for three free fleas to fly,
    Or to take a freezy breeze that blew
    While these fleas flew and by blowing
    Freeze these three trees. To breeze, to freeze --
    No more; and by a breeze to blow we freeze
    The trees and the thousand natural trees
    That cheese is heir to -- 'tis a cheese
    Devoutly to be freezed. To breeze, to freeze --
    To freeze, perchance to sneeze. Ay, there's the rub,
    For in that freeze of cheese what sneezes may come,
    When fleas flew off this mortal coil,
    Must give us pause.

    KNOX:
    Adieu my lord,
    This is a speech of fire that fain would blaze
    But that this folly douts it.

    [Exeunt.]


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----

    ACT 5, Scene 1

    [Enter FOX and KNOX.]

    FOX:
    So much for this sir, now shall you see the other.
    Bear witness to such talk as follows of tweetle beetles --

    [Enter TWEETLE BEETLES.]

    What dost thou know of tweetle beetles?
    Well, when tweetle beetles fare to cudgel brains
    'Tis notified a tweetle beetle battle.
    And with such maimed rites in a puddle?
    This doth betoken a tweetle beetle puddle battle.
    And the course they follow did with desperate paddles
    Fordo in a tweetle beetle puddle paddle battle.

    KNOX:
    What ceremony else?

    FOX:
    What is he whose battle
    Bears such beetles in a puddle? Whose puddle of battle
    Conjures the wandering paddles, and makes them stand
    In a wonder-wounded bottle? This is a tweetle beetle
    Bottle puddle paddle battle muddle.
    And sir, in this bottle there was a kind of fighting
    That would not let beetles sleep. Methought they battled
    Worse with paddles in a bottle.

    [Enter POODLE attendant.]

    Rashly,
    And on a poodle eating noodles -- let us know,
    A muddle puddle tweetle poodle beetle noodle
    Bottle paddle battle. And --

    KNOX:
    The devil take thy soul.
    Oh villainy! Come, for the battle, Fox.
    When thou art in the bottle where the tweetle beetles
    Battle in answer of the paddles,
    Let all the paddles on its noodle-eating poodle
    Drink to Fox's better breath, and in the bottle
    A battle shall he throw richer than that which
    Four successive kings in Denmark's crown have worn.
    Let this be known a tweetle beetle noodle poodle
    Bottled paddled muddled duddled fuddled wuddled
    Fox in socks, my lord!

    FOX:
    A hit, a very palpable hit. Oh I die, Knox,
    The potent poison quite o'ercrows my spirit.

    [Dies.]

    KNOX:
    Now cracks a noble heart. Good night sweet prince,
    And flights of angels sing our game done, sir.
    Thank you for a lot of fun, sir.

    [Exeunt all.]


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ----


    --
    George Lawrence
    George's Drum Shop
    1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    Copley, Ohio 44321
    http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    http://www.Drumguru.com
    330 670 0800
    toll free 866 970 0800

    "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    buy each of his children a drum."
    -Chinese proverb




    .. > > > month."
  8. in article eOI3b.222151$cF.73422@rwcrnsc53, BKO at
    brentolesenNOSPAM@hotmail.com wrote on 8/29/03 9:45 AM:

    > Linda,
    >
    > I make a distinction between the court house and the concert hall, but I do
    > agree with most of your points and can sympathize with the kids and the
    > community. The hubris of the zealots makes everyone suffer.
    >
    > BKO
    >


    >> One of the things that recently happened in town was a last minute
    >> cancellation of Handel's Messiah at the arts/music vocational high school

    > in
    >> the city schools system. Ft. Hayes in Columbus, Ohio to be exact.



    I think the school system was afraid of a potential court case so they
    pulled the show at the last minute.

    Extreme cases like this is where I fear that there really is not the
    impartial balance that I think most reasonable people prefer...and what
    things like this could lead to when insecure administrators continually
    cow-tow to the zealots to avoid scandal at all costs.

    Doesn't surprise me though. I think the school system is just trying to
    avoid opening numerous cans of worms on other issues. I think they have a
    pantry full.

    I personally prefer impartial balance and always have. This stuck out in my
    mind as not falling under that definition, based on the prior history of the
    production.

    Linda
  9. BKO

    BKO Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    Hey Phil,

    what is your native language?

    BKO

    "Phil Duncan" <lucento@fakemail.org> wrote in message
    news:d70d49a4.0308290520.2b005c60@posting.google.com...

    > THE BEST THINGS HAVE BEEN CULMINATED
    > Zeal to promote the common good, whether it be by devising anything
    > ourselves, or revising that which hath been laboured by others,
    > deserveth certainly much respect and esteem, but yet findeth but cold
    > entertainment in the world. It is welcomed with suspicion instead of
    > love, and with emulation instead of thanks: and if there be any hole
    > left for cavil to enter, (and cavil, if it do not find a hole, will
    > make one) it is sure to be misconstrued, and in danger to be
    > condemned. This will easily be granted by as many as know story, or
    > have any experience. For, was there ever any-projected, that savoured
    > any way of newness or renewing, but the same endured many a storm of
    > gainsaying, or opposition? A man would think that Civility, wholesome
    > Laws, learning and eloquence, Synods, and Church-maintenance, (that we
    > speak of no more things of this kind) should be as safe as a
    > Sanctuary, and out of shot, as they say, that no man would lift up the
    > heel, no, nor dog move his tongue against the motioners of them. For
    > by the first, we are distinguished from brute beasts lead with
    > sensuality; By the second, we are bridled and restrained from
    > outrageous behaviour, and from doing of injuries, whether by fraud or
    > by violence; By the third, we are enabled to inform and reform others,
    > by the light and feeling that we have attained unto ourselves;
    > Briefly, by the fourth being brought together to a parley face to
    > face, we sooner compose our differences than by writings which are
    > endless; And lastly, that the Church be sufficiently provided for, is
    > so agreeable to good reason and conscience, that those mothers are
    > holden to be less cruel, that kill their children as soon as they are
    > born, than those nursing fathers and mothers (wheresoever they be)
    > that withdraw from them who hang upon their breasts (and upon whose
    > breasts again themselves do hang to receive the Spiritual and sincere
    > milk of the word) livelihood and support fit for their estates. Thus
    > it is apparent, that these things which we speak of, are of most
    > necessary use, and therefore, that none, either without absurdity can
    > speak against them, or without note of wickedness can spurn against
    > them.
    >
    > Yet for all that, the learned know that certain worthy men [Anacharsis
    > with others] have been brought to untimely death for none other fault,
    > but for seeking to reduce their Countrymen to god order and
    > discipline; and that in some Commonwealths [e.g. Locri] it was made a
    > capital crime, once to motion the making of a new Law for the
    > abrogating of an old, though the same were most pernicious; And that
    > certain [Cato the elder], which would be counted pillars of the State,
    > and patterns of Virtue and Prudence, could not be brought for a long
    > time to give way to good Letters and refined speech, but bare
    > themselves as averse from them, as from rocks or boxes of poison; And
    > fourthly, that he was no babe, but a great clerk [Gregory the Divine],
    > that gave forth (and in writing to remain to posterity) in passion
    > peradventure, but yet he gave forth, that he had not seen any profit
    > to come by any Synod, or meeting of the Clergy, but rather the
    > contrary; And lastly, against Church-maintenance and allowance, in
    > such sort, as the Ambassadors and messengers of the great King of
    > Kings should be furnished, it is not unknown what a fiction or fable
    > (so it is esteemed, and for no better by the reporter himself
    > [Nauclerus], though superstitious) was devised; Namely, that at such a
    > time as the professors and teachers of Christianity in the Church of
    > Rome, then a true Church, were liberally endowed, a voice forsooth was
    > heard from heaven, saying: Now is poison poured down into the Church,
    > etc. Thus not only as oft as we speak, as one saith, but also as oft
    > as we do anything of note or consequence, we subject ourselves to
    > everyone's censure, and happy is he that is least tossed upon tongues;
    > for utterly to escape the snatch of them it is impossible. If any man
    > conceit, that this is the lot and portion of the meaner sort only, and
    > that Princes are privileged by their high estate, he is deceived. "As
    > the sword devoureth as well one as the other," as it is in Samuel [2
    > Sam 11:25], nay as the great Commander charged his soldiers in a
    > certain battle, to strike at no part of the enemy, but at the face;
    > And as the King of Syria commanded his chief Captains to "fight
    > neither with small nor great, save only against the King of Israel:"
    > [1 Kings 22:31] so it is too true, that Envy striketh most spitefully
    > at the fairest, and at the chiefest. David was a worthy Prince, and no
    > man to be compared to him for his first deeds, and yet for as worthy
    > as act as ever he did (even for bringing back the Ark of God in
    > solemnity) he was scorned and scoffed at by his own wife [2 Sam 6:16].
    > Solomon was greater than David, though not in virtue, yet in power:
    > and by his power and wisdom he built a Temple to the Lord, such a one
    > as was the glory of the land of Israel, and the wonder of the whole
    > world. But was that his magnificence liked of by all? We doubt it.
    > Otherwise, why do they lay it in his son's dish, and call unto him for
    > easing the burden, "Make", say they, "the grievous servitude of thy
    > father, and his sore yoke, lighter?" [1 Kings 12:4] Belike he had
    > charged them with some levies, and troubled them with some carriages;
    > Hereupon they raise up a tragedy, and wish in their heart the Temple
    > had never been built. So hard a thing it is to please all, even when
    > we please God best, and do seek to approve ourselves to every ones
    > conscience.
    >
    > If we will descend to later times, we shall find many the like
    > examples of such kind, or rather unkind acceptance. The first Roman
    > Emperor [C. Caesar. Plutarch] did never do a more pleasing deed to the
    > learned, nor more profitable to posterity, for conserving the record
    > of times in true supputation; than when he corrected the Calendar, and
    > ordered the year according to the course of the Sun; and yet this was
    > imputed to him for novelty, and arrogance, and procured to him great
    > obloguy. So the first Christened Emperor [Constantine] (at the least-
    > wise that openly professed the faith himself, and allowed others to do
    > the like) for strengthening the Empire at his great charges, and pro-
    > viding for the Church, as he did, got for his labour the name
    > Pupillus, as who would say, a wasteful Prince, that had need of a
    > Guardian or overseer [Aurel. Victor]. So the best Christened Emperor
    > [Theodosius], for the love that he bare unto peace, thereby to enrich
    > both himself and his subjects, and because he did not see war but find
    > it, was judged to be no man at arms [Zosimus], (though indeed he
    > excelled in feats of chivalry, and showed so much when he was
    > provoked) and con- demned for giving himself to his ease, and to his
    > pleasure. To be short, the most learned Emperor of former times
    > [Justinian], (at the least, the greatest politician) what thanks had
    > he for cutting off the superfluities of the laws, and digesting them
    > into some order and method? This, that he had been blotted by some to
    > be an Epitomist, that is, one that extinguishes worthy whole volumes,
    > to bring his abridgments into request. This is the measure that hath
    > been rendered to excellent Princes in former times, even, Cum bene
    > facerent, male audire, For their good deeds to be evil spoken of.
    > Neither is there any likelihood, that envy and malignity died, and
    > were buried with the ancient. No, no, the reproof of Moses taketh hold
    > of most ages; "You are risen up in your fathers' stead, and increase
    > of sinful men." [Num 32:14] "What is that that hath been done? that
    > which shall be done; and there is no new thing under the Sun," saith
    > the wiseman: [Ecc 1:9] and S. Stephen, "As your fathers did, so do
    > you." [Acts 7:51]
  10. "DaveMohn" <jdmdrums@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:20030829084758.07421.00000124@mb-m27.aol.com...
    > I didn't read all 61of these posts for God's sake ; - ) so sorry if these
    > thoughts are already documented...
    >
    > Couldn't you consider atheism a "religion".It seems to me that some are
    > attempting to re-establish the USA as an
    > a-thesist country...
    > ..."danger Will Robinson!..."
    > Isn't the the idea to have freedom "of religion", rather than freedom
    > "from religion."


    These are buzzwords, not positions. Religion is based on faith and
    submission to a deity. Atheism means, literally, "without God". Without a
    deity, there is nothing to be faithful or submissive to.

    I'm against Christianity becoming part of the publicly-funded and sanctioned
    landscape because throughout the history of Western Civilization, Christians
    have had this nasty habit of imposing their moral judgment on everybody;
    taking over governments, constitutions, and life or death decisions. Look
    at all the indigenous cultures across the globe that have had their
    artifacts and history eliminated and obliterated so that the missionaries
    could convert the heathens and savages and save their soul. Their contempt
    for anybody else's lifestyle for their own has caused irreparable damage for
    millennia.

    If people want to worship on their own, in churches, temples, or whatever
    places of worship, I'll defend that as long as I live. But I do wish they'd
    quit trying to convert me in the process.
  11. Sean Conolly

    Sean Conolly Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    news:N3u3b.3619$PH6.1517@news.cpqcorp.net...
    >
    > "Sean Conolly" <sjconolly_98@yaaho.com> wrote in message
    > news:aXn3b.76560$zz3.57767@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com...
    > > ">
    > > However, the Ten Commandments are fundamental to Christians, Jews, and
    > > Muslims. The same is true of "God" in the phrase "In God We Trust". I

    > don't
    > > believe it promotes any single religion as much as it recognizes that
    > > historically America was founded and built by mostly God-fearing people.

    >
    > And the Constitution was written and ratified by rich white slave-owning
    > landowners who didn't allow women or poor folks to vote. Maybe some of

    their
    > views don't withstand scrutiny.


    As a white landowner whom some would feel was rich, I don't see what that
    has to do with anything. They let the same people vote who were
    traditionally allowed to vote in England.

    However, as the guys who brought us the first true Democracy in well over a
    thousand years and the Bill of Rights, which among other things lets us
    engage in this debate, I'm pretty sure that overall their views have and
    will continue to withstand a lot more scrutiny for a lot longer than your
    views or mine.

    Sean
  12. Re: The Ten comandments.

    George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > I will accept that atheism and agnosticism are world views, but not
    > "religions". Religion can safely be defined in the broadest sense as man's
    > expression of his acknowledgement of the divine. Because neither atheism and
    > agnosticism acknowledge the divine, they are not religions. They are the
    > lack of religion.


    Yes, saying that has been a ploy of the atheists, agnostics etc.
    for some time, and worded as you word it makes sense. But I say
    religion is not solely defined as an "expression of his acknowledgement
    of the divine". Yes, Religion as found in organized churches definitely
    is "religion". But that isn't quite enough. The Dictionary puts it
    this way: "A system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".

    I don't know about you, but that SURE describes atheists to me.
    It's not just a "world view" because it does take postions
    on supreme being(s), afterlife, etc. What that position is
    is not important what is import is that the system is
    held with "ardor an faith". Thus it seems to follow that it's
    not atheists, agnostics and the like who are without religion,
    but rather the only folks who truly have "no religion" are
    the people who could give a rat's ass about the topic!

    Therefore, it follows quite logically at all the folks
    screaming "separation of church and state" when ever
    some object appears in public clearly DO have "ardor and
    faith" and are thus trying to establish as the "state
    religion" their religion!

    Q.E.D.

    Benj
    (Now where the hell are my meds?)
  13. Re: The Ten comandments.

    George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > I think you personal belief in conspiracy theories
    > is considered a religion though, Ben! :)


    Only if I hold to that system of beliefs with "ardor and faith"!
    (See my other post)

    Benj
    --
    SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!
  14. Re: The Ten comandments.

    George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > The FF were primarily
    > protestants very involved in the liberal movement which guided the writing
    > of the constitution. They put their personal religous denominations' dogma
    > aside and did not include any of it in the constitution but worded it so
    > that references to God were inclusive of all religions.


    George didn't make this clear, but the "Liberal movement" he is
    talking about was the movement to abandon rulership of kings
    and establish rule of the people by various schemes. As he
    notes, our constitution and D of I are very much statements
    of that "liberal" postition. Today these views are called
    "conservative". In that day "conservatives" were Monarchists.

    Hence we conspiracy theorists often use the term "Jeffersonian
    Liberal" for ourselves.

    Benj

    --
    SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!
  15. Re: The Ten comandments.

    Glenn Dowdy <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote:

    > And the Constitution was written and ratified by rich white slave-owning
    > landowners who didn't allow women or poor folks to vote. Maybe some of their
    > views don't withstand scrutiny.


    Maybe. But that depends upon what scrutiny finds doesn't it? Does
    one judge a book or (gid help us) drumming by the lifestyle
    of the artist? There are SO many great talents out there who are
    just total busts as human beings it'd really be throwing the
    baby out with the bathwater to judge a work by the life of the
    author.

    One judges a work by judging the WORK! Personally I find their
    work very good. I think also it has pretty well stood the test
    of time. But then the old way of rule by a hereditary king
    has as well.

    Benj
    --
    SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!
  16. BKO

    BKO Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    Sean,

    IMO a couple of points should be made here: 1) The US of A ain't a true
    democracy (small point, but important), and 2) While the framers of our
    constitution deserve unbounded credit for their courage and sacrifice when
    forging the separation from England, they did compromise their personal
    views in order to come up with a document satisfactory to all (what they did
    at home tended to differ from what they encoded in that document).
    Moreover, the important concepts embodied in that document derive from the
    philosophies of writers like Hobbes & Locke. I recommend you give the
    framers credit where it's due, but don't rob them of their humanity. They
    did make mistakes.

    BKO

    "Sean Conolly" <sjconolly_98@yaaho.com> wrote in message
    news:hyJ3b.376$VC1.212@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
    > "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    > news:N3u3b.3619$PH6.1517@news.cpqcorp.net...
    > >
    > > "Sean Conolly" <sjconolly_98@yaaho.com> wrote in message
    > > news:aXn3b.76560$zz3.57767@fe05.atl2.webusenet.com...
    > > > ">
    > > > However, the Ten Commandments are fundamental to Christians, Jews, and
    > > > Muslims. The same is true of "God" in the phrase "In God We Trust". I

    > > don't
    > > > believe it promotes any single religion as much as it recognizes that
    > > > historically America was founded and built by mostly God-fearing

    people.
    > >
    > > And the Constitution was written and ratified by rich white slave-owning
    > > landowners who didn't allow women or poor folks to vote. Maybe some of

    > their
    > > views don't withstand scrutiny.

    >
    > As a white landowner whom some would feel was rich, I don't see what that
    > has to do with anything. They let the same people vote who were
    > traditionally allowed to vote in England.
    >
    > However, as the guys who brought us the first true Democracy in well over

    a
    > thousand years and the Bill of Rights, which among other things lets us
    > engage in this debate, I'm pretty sure that overall their views have and
    > will continue to withstand a lot more scrutiny for a lot longer than your
    > views or mine.
    >
    > Sean
    >
    >
    >
  17. Re: The Ten comandments.

    > Therefore, it follows quite logically at all the folks
    > screaming "separation of church and state" when ever
    > some object appears in public clearly DO have "ardor and
    > faith" and are thus trying to establish as the "state
    > religion" their religion!


    There are so few atheists, Ben.
    Most who oppose state sanction of religous symbols and practices are theists
    of different stripes and are usually motivated by political, not religous
    reasons. Keeping fundamentalists at bay is not just an atheist thing. This
    latest round was started by a fundie judge and you've taken his bait.

    --
    George Lawrence
    George's Drum Shop
    1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    Copley, Ohio 44321
    http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    http://www.Drumguru.com
    330 670 0800
    toll free 866 970 0800

    "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    buy each of his children a drum."
    -Chinese proverb




    <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    news:binpa2$d4v$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > > I will accept that atheism and agnosticism are world views, but not
    > > "religions". Religion can safely be defined in the broadest sense as

    man's
    > > expression of his acknowledgement of the divine. Because neither atheism

    and
    > > agnosticism acknowledge the divine, they are not religions. They are the
    > > lack of religion.

    >
    > Yes, saying that has been a ploy of the atheists, agnostics etc.
    > for some time, and worded as you word it makes sense. But I say
    > religion is not solely defined as an "expression of his acknowledgement
    > of the divine". Yes, Religion as found in organized churches definitely
    > is "religion". But that isn't quite enough. The Dictionary puts it
    > this way: "A system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".
    >
    > I don't know about you, but that SURE describes atheists to me.
    > It's not just a "world view" because it does take postions
    > on supreme being(s), afterlife, etc. What that position is
    > is not important what is import is that the system is
    > held with "ardor an faith". Thus it seems to follow that it's
    > not atheists, agnostics and the like who are without religion,
    > but rather the only folks who truly have "no religion" are
    > the people who could give a rat's ass about the topic!
    >
    > Therefore, it follows quite logically at all the folks
    > screaming "separation of church and state" when ever
    > some object appears in public clearly DO have "ardor and
    > faith" and are thus trying to establish as the "state
    > religion" their religion!
    >
    > Q.E.D.
    >
    > Benj
    > (Now where the hell are my meds?)
  18. Linda Dachtyl <lindaleed@earthlink.net> wrote:

    > One of the things that recently happened in town was a last minute
    > cancellation of Handel's Messiah at the arts/music vocational high school in
    > the city schools system. Ft. Hayes in Columbus, Ohio to be exact.


    Yeah, leave it to good old Cowtown.

    > Regardless of one's religious beliefs (or not), this production had gone on
    > for years without complaint and was a tradition that was looked forward to.
    > Surely, even those without even remotely Christian beliefs recognize the
    > value of this work as great music, regardless of how they feel about the
    > text.


    This is exactly the kind of stripping of any "religious" references
    from "public" performances crusade that so many are on. The historical
    values of the music become totally overshadowed by arguments that it
    is "religious".

    This is exactly like the monument thing. Are the 10 commandments
    a historical basis for modern law? You bet. So ponder this one
    for a moment. What if that judge had placed a giant granite
    monument of the Code of Hammurabi in the lobby. In that case the
    true issues would probably have been discussed (did he have authority
    over the space etc.) But instead we have the people who are scared
    of anything with even a hint of Christianity in it attacking full
    bore. So much of history is mingled with Christianity it's really
    a shame to see it all attacked on the basis of "Christian content".

    People can be a hoot.

    Benj
    --
    SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!
  19. Da Parrot-chick <just@sk.me> wrote:

    > If people want to worship on their own, in churches, temples, or whatever
    > places of worship, I'll defend that as long as I live. But I do wish they'd
    > quit trying to convert me in the process.


    Ah yes. We get it. If all those happy darkies would just keep singing
    songs and working the fields and stay out of our faces with demands
    that they are people the same as anyone else it'd be a perfect world.

    Right Parrot-chick, we see where you are coming from.

    Benj
    --
    SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!
  20. BKO

    BKO Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    ben,

    A definition (as you should know) requires two parts: the part where it
    includes and the part where it excludes: e.g., a Gretsch drum has the
    qualities that make it a drum, but also has specific qualities that
    distinguish it from other drums. Your position that atheism is a religion
    seems to me to ignore the exclusionary part. This leads to the conclusion
    that every little group get together is a religion, just so long as the
    people involved believe something. You can hold your view, it's not a big
    thing, but you've robbed the word of significance. If 'everything' is
    religion, then 'nothing' is.

    BKO

    <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    news:binpa2$d4v$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > > I will accept that atheism and agnosticism are world views, but not
    > > "religions". Religion can safely be defined in the broadest sense as

    man's
    > > expression of his acknowledgement of the divine. Because neither atheism

    and
    > > agnosticism acknowledge the divine, they are not religions. They are the
    > > lack of religion.

    >
    > Yes, saying that has been a ploy of the atheists, agnostics etc.
    > for some time, and worded as you word it makes sense. But I say
    > religion is not solely defined as an "expression of his acknowledgement
    > of the divine". Yes, Religion as found in organized churches definitely
    > is "religion". But that isn't quite enough. The Dictionary puts it
    > this way: "A system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".
    >
    > I don't know about you, but that SURE describes atheists to me.
    > It's not just a "world view" because it does take postions
    > on supreme being(s), afterlife, etc. What that position is
    > is not important what is import is that the system is
    > held with "ardor an faith". Thus it seems to follow that it's
    > not atheists, agnostics and the like who are without religion,
    > but rather the only folks who truly have "no religion" are
    > the people who could give a rat's ass about the topic!
    >
    > Therefore, it follows quite logically at all the folks
    > screaming "separation of church and state" when ever
    > some object appears in public clearly DO have "ardor and
    > faith" and are thus trying to establish as the "state
    > religion" their religion!
    >
    > Q.E.D.
    >
    > Benj
    > (Now where the hell are my meds?)

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