OT: The Ten comandments.

Discussion in 'rec.music.percussion' started by NoSheeples, Aug 28, 2003.

  1. Re: The Ten comandments.

    well, schuh is the worst example of an atheist anyone has ever seen.

    Ben, you keep saying "they" are the culprits. You have yet to d define who
    "they" really are. It ain't me. this is all academic to me.

    --
    George Lawrence
    George's Drum Shop
    1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    Copley, Ohio 44321
    http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    http://www.Drumguru.com
    330 670 0800
    toll free 866 970 0800

    "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    buy each of his children a drum."
    -Chinese proverb




    <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    news:bioinl$c5$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    >
    > > There are so few atheists, Ben.

    >
    > I don't know numbers but I doubt they are "few". The way the
    > theory of evolution has been taught as "fact" has seen to that.
    > And even if they are relatively few, they sure are LOUD! Just the
    > way the few rake the "christ-boys" in this group over the coals
    > regularly proves that. :)
    >
    > > Most who oppose state sanction of religous symbols and practices are

    theists
    > > of different stripes and are usually motivated by political, not

    religous
    > > reasons. Keeping fundamentalists at bay is not just an atheist thing.

    This
    > > latest round was started by a fundie judge and you've taken his bait.

    >
    > Obviously I also oppose state endorsement (I don't want to use the
    > word "sanction" here) of any religion. And while I agree that there is a
    > large Christian element in the founding and history of this country,
    > I also strongly disagree with the fundamentalist proposition that this
    > is somehow a "Christian" country. And therefore should be "officially"
    > turned into one by law.
    >
    > But here is where I and the "no God" crowd part ways. The American
    > idea is not only that the there shall be no state endorsed religion,
    > but ALSO that the practice of religion by believers shall not
    > be inhibited by law. The Atheist/agnostic/etc. bunch has interpreted
    > this to mean that's its just fine if those kooks get a private
    > building somewhere and up their "idols" and chant whatever
    > they want to sing and shout nicely out of sight. That's fine. But if
    > such people suddenly choose to actually make their religion part of
    > their life and actually LIVE it! WHOA! That's public display of
    > symbols! That violates the mythical "separation of church and state"
    > and the few (but loud) crowd suddenly is filing lawsuit after lawsuit.
    >
    > And it's FAR worse than that. They've done this for so long now that
    > hardcore religious symbols and actions aren't enough. Now they
    > have started on things with true historical basis and value.
    > They are suing to strip any traditional seasonal liturgy from
    > a "holiday" show (don't dare call it a Christmas show anymore)
    > Music has to be limited to Teresa Brewer singing about mommy
    > kissing Santa Claus. It's like the old USSR where any religious
    > references historical or otherwise were methodically stripped out
    > of encyclopedias and books.
    >
    > You know, George, there was a time when the very same kind
    > of arguments we are hearing now about people practicing
    > religion and people being forced to tolerate other people
    > with different faiths were argued about other races!
    > The Jew who sued to get traditional liturgy out of the
    > public school show because he found it "offensive" was
    > not so long ago himself found "offensive" just by existing
    > and many argued that so long as he stayed separate and hidden
    > things were fine.
    >
    > So were they fine? Nope. 100 years of "separate but equal"
    > showed that in the end it had to be if you are offended
    > by another's race, too bad. Get over it! America stated
    > from the beginning that "all men are created equal".
    > And I think that one day not too far off, these people
    > who have such a cow over public display of a person's religion
    > are also going to have to get over it. And I'm talking
    > about people on ALL sides!
    >
    > Maybe not tomorrow, but one day. I think that is what the
    > ideals of America demand.
    >
    > As for the judge having me be "had", can't say. But I can say
    > that the issue needs to be decided on proper issues and not
    > on that mythical "separation of church and state" old saw.
    >
    > That's what I say.
    >
    > benj
    > (Who very much agrees that most of these disputes are started
    > for political not religious reasons)
  2. Re: The Ten comandments.

    "Although I know I shouldnt have needed proof as a Christian...as
    a scientifically minded man I did demand proof...and got it."

    This should be interesting. Share your obvious proof with the rest of the
    world! :)

    --
    George Lawrence
    George's Drum Shop
    1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    Copley, Ohio 44321
    http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    http://www.Drumguru.com
    330 670 0800
    toll free 866 970 0800

    "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    buy each of his children a drum."
    -Chinese proverb




    "Joey Furr" <joeyfurr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:JaecnZB6HKWqUNKiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
    > "Da Parrot-chick" <just@sk.me> wrote in message
    > news:UlM3b.623$tw6.470@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > >
    > > <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > > news:binpa2$d4v$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > > > George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > > > > I will accept that atheism and agnosticism are world views, but not
    > > > > "religions". Religion can safely be defined in the broadest sense as

    > > man's
    > > > > expression of his acknowledgement of the divine. Because neither

    > atheism
    > > and
    > > > > agnosticism acknowledge the divine, they are not religions. They are

    > the
    > > > > lack of religion.
    > > >
    > > > Yes, saying that has been a ploy of the atheists, agnostics etc.
    > > > for some time, and worded as you word it makes sense. But I say
    > > > religion is not solely defined as an "expression of his

    acknowledgement
    > > > of the divine". Yes, Religion as found in organized churches

    definitely
    > > > is "religion". But that isn't quite enough. The Dictionary puts it
    > > > this way: "A system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".

    > >
    > > Right. Atheists and agnostics want proof. You can't have faith and

    > demand
    > > proof at the same time.

    >
    > Incorrect. Although I know I shouldnt have needed proof as a

    Christian...as
    > a scientifically minded man I did demand proof...and got it.
    > You just have to be willing to look.
    >
    > If you sincerely look...you WILL find proof.
    >
    > ...Joey
    >
    > Faith is the most necessary part of religion, no?
    > > Even God says so--it's the first commandment. Believe in Me and Me

    only.
    > >
    > > > I don't know about you, but that SURE describes atheists to me.
    > > > It's not just a "world view" because it does take postions
    > > > on supreme being(s), afterlife, etc.

    > >
    > > I suppose indifference is a position. I don't know of any atheists who

    go
    > > on crusades to get the faithful to ditch their religion and not care

    about
    > > it anymore, though.
    > >
    > > What that position is
    > > > is not important what is import is that the system is
    > > > held with "ardor an faith". Thus it seems to follow that it's
    > > > not atheists, agnostics and the like who are without religion,
    > > > but rather the only folks who truly have "no religion" are
    > > > the people who could give a rat's ass about the topic!

    > >
    > > Only problem with that is, the fundamentalists enter at that point and

    try
    > > to change the laws to favor their religion over others. That's when the

    > law
    > > steps in.
    > >
    > > > Therefore, it follows quite logically at all the folks
    > > > screaming "separation of church and state" when ever
    > > > some object appears in public clearly DO have "ardor and
    > > > faith" and are thus trying to establish as the "state
    > > > religion" their religion!
    > > >
    > > > Q.E.D.

    > >
    > > Wow, man.
    > >
    > > > Benj
    > > > (Now where the hell are my meds?)

    > >
    > > I didn't touch 'em--we're on different prescriptions :)
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
  3. On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:50:44 +0000, George Lawrence wrote:

    >
    > "Are the 10 commandments
    > a historical basis for modern law?"
    >
    > No. three of them are but those three are in most preceding legal codes too.


    Did you look that up? Or are you speaking from memory? ;-)


    > --
    > George Lawrence
    > George's Drum Shop
    > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > 330 670 0800
    > toll free 866 970 0800
    >
    > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > buy each of his children a drum."
    > -Chinese proverb
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > news:binr62$e92$1@tribune.oar.net...
    >> Linda Dachtyl <lindaleed@earthlink.net> wrote:
    >>
    >> > One of the things that recently happened in town was a last minute
    >> > cancellation of Handel's Messiah at the arts/music vocational high

    > school in
    >> > the city schools system. Ft. Hayes in Columbus, Ohio to be exact.

    >>
    >> Yeah, leave it to good old Cowtown.
    >>
    >> > Regardless of one's religious beliefs (or not), this production had gone

    > on
    >> > for years without complaint and was a tradition that was looked forward

    > to.
    >> > Surely, even those without even remotely Christian beliefs recognize the
    >> > value of this work as great music, regardless of how they feel about the
    >> > text.

    >>
    >> This is exactly the kind of stripping of any "religious" references
    >> from "public" performances crusade that so many are on. The historical
    >> values of the music become totally overshadowed by arguments that it
    >> is "religious".
    >>
    >> This is exactly like the monument thing. Are the 10 commandments
    >> a historical basis for modern law? You bet. So ponder this one
    >> for a moment. What if that judge had placed a giant granite
    >> monument of the Code of Hammurabi in the lobby. In that case the
    >> true issues would probably have been discussed (did he have authority
    >> over the space etc.) But instead we have the people who are scared
    >> of anything with even a hint of Christianity in it attacking full
    >> bore. So much of history is mingled with Christianity it's really
    >> a shame to see it all attacked on the basis of "Christian content".
    >>
    >> People can be a hoot.
    >>
    >> Benj
    >> --
    >> SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!


    --

    peace,

    Rog

    http://www.slammingrooves.com



    Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:

    11. "Get me out of harm's way!"

    10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"

    9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."

    8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this administration."

    7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton! MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"

    6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"

    5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."

    4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."

    3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    transformer.'"

    2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"

    And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of '03...

    1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney. I'm on a
    vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you next
    month."
  4. Re: The Ten comandments.

    On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:16:49 -0400, Chris Milillo wrote:

    > "Roger Sherman" <coolgrooves@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2003.08.29.19.09.26.422229@hotmail.com...
    >>After all, one
    >> of the core beliefs of Buddhism is called "actual proof."

    >
    > As is the core belief of Mike Clarkism! ;-)
    >
    >
    > Funkfully,
    > CM


    Heh...
    --

    peace,

    Rog

    http://www.slammingrooves.com



    Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:

    11. "Get me out of harm's way!"

    10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"

    9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."

    8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this administration."

    7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton! MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"

    6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"

    5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."

    4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."

    3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    transformer.'"

    2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"

    And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of '03...

    1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney. I'm on a
    vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you next
    month."
  5. Re: The Ten comandments.

    On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:19:14 +0000, BKO wrote:

    >
    > "Roger Sherman" <coolgrooves@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:pan.2003.08.29.19.17.14.959659@hotmail.com...
    >
    >> Can you point out to me where I said that all atheists are religious?

    >
    > Roger,
    >
    > As I understand it this thread deals with the proposition that either
    > atheism is a form of religion or it is not. You've argued that your version
    > of atheism is religious.



    I think I actually argued that my form of religion is atheist.




    > I took you to be arguing in the affirmative. By
    > your last statement I can only assume you were pointing to the complexity of
    > the issue. If so, then I agree with you and I can think of other non-deist
    > organizations that are religious in nature too; e.g., Scientology IIRC, but
    > the problem is that many atheists do not claim to be members of religious
    > communities. In fact they claim just the opposite. And, when they work to
    > keep society free of undue religious influence, they do not appreciate being
    > told they are acting in contradiction to their own values. I take them at
    > their word.
    >
    > BKO


    --

    peace,

    Rog

    http://www.slammingrooves.com



    Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:

    11. "Get me out of harm's way!"

    10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"

    9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."

    8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this administration."

    7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton! MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"

    6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"

    5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."

    4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."

    3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    transformer.'"

    2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"

    And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of '03...

    1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney. I'm on a
    vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you next
    month."
  6. Re: The Ten comandments.

    Most atheists and agnostics keep to themselves. What is the point of
    proselytizing nothing? :)

    --
    George Lawrence
    George's Drum Shop
    1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    Copley, Ohio 44321
    http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    http://www.Drumguru.com
    330 670 0800
    toll free 866 970 0800

    "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    buy each of his children a drum."
    -Chinese proverb




    "Da Parrot-chick" <just@sk.me> wrote in message
    news:UlM3b.623$tw6.470@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    >
    > <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > news:binpa2$d4v$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > > George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > > > I will accept that atheism and agnosticism are world views, but not
    > > > "religions". Religion can safely be defined in the broadest sense as

    > man's
    > > > expression of his acknowledgement of the divine. Because neither

    atheism
    > and
    > > > agnosticism acknowledge the divine, they are not religions. They are

    the
    > > > lack of religion.

    > >
    > > Yes, saying that has been a ploy of the atheists, agnostics etc.
    > > for some time, and worded as you word it makes sense. But I say
    > > religion is not solely defined as an "expression of his acknowledgement
    > > of the divine". Yes, Religion as found in organized churches definitely
    > > is "religion". But that isn't quite enough. The Dictionary puts it
    > > this way: "A system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".

    >
    > Right. Atheists and agnostics want proof. You can't have faith and

    demand
    > proof at the same time. Faith is the most necessary part of religion, no?
    > Even God says so--it's the first commandment. Believe in Me and Me only.
    >
    > > I don't know about you, but that SURE describes atheists to me.
    > > It's not just a "world view" because it does take postions
    > > on supreme being(s), afterlife, etc.

    >
    > I suppose indifference is a position. I don't know of any atheists who go
    > on crusades to get the faithful to ditch their religion and not care about
    > it anymore, though.
    >
    > What that position is
    > > is not important what is import is that the system is
    > > held with "ardor an faith". Thus it seems to follow that it's
    > > not atheists, agnostics and the like who are without religion,
    > > but rather the only folks who truly have "no religion" are
    > > the people who could give a rat's ass about the topic!

    >
    > Only problem with that is, the fundamentalists enter at that point and try
    > to change the laws to favor their religion over others. That's when the

    law
    > steps in.
    >
    > > Therefore, it follows quite logically at all the folks
    > > screaming "separation of church and state" when ever
    > > some object appears in public clearly DO have "ardor and
    > > faith" and are thus trying to establish as the "state
    > > religion" their religion!
    > >
    > > Q.E.D.

    >
    > Wow, man.
    >
    > > Benj
    > > (Now where the hell are my meds?)

    >
    > I didn't touch 'em--we're on different prescriptions :)
    >
    >
  7. NoSheeples

    NoSheeples Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    >what an


    >I wish the GOP held Dubya to the same standard as Clinton. Wonder what an
    >independent counsel and $52 million would turn up?


    First you need a scandle. They have Zero on shrub. They are shooting at a
    dart board with a blind fold on, but they keep missing the mark. Sucks ha? Oh
    wait I know, your going to say he's hiding something with the saudi documents.
    This is BS to because the senetors claim they read them, and there is
    incriminating stuff on there.You know damn well it would have leaked to the
    press by now. If the Democrats actually had anything they would sure as hell
    use it because as of right now they are screwed. Shrub in 04!



    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty is
    a well armed lamb protesting the vote."
  8. Re: The Ten comandments.

    "NoSheeples" <n2new@aol.comNsheep> wrote in message
    news:20030830010907.28519.00000147@mb-m03.aol.com...
    > >what an

    >
    >
    > >I wish the GOP held Dubya to the same standard as Clinton. Wonder what

    an
    > >independent counsel and $52 million would turn up?

    >
    > First you need a scandle. They have Zero on shrub.

    They are shooting at a
    > dart board with a blind fold on, but they keep missing the mark.


    Actually, the liberal media seems to be leaving Dubya alone. There's more
    then enough to shoot at, and you don't even have aim good. What about:

    * repeated warnings about terrorists hijacking planes
    * his many lies he repeated during the campaign (never been arrested,
    stealing quotes from others without giving credit, fudging numbers on his
    tax plan, and don't even get me started on his Air National Guard record)
    * secrecy surrounding Halliburton and the restructuring plan of Iraq after
    the war
    * his "Bring it on" threat that found more US and British soldiers killed
    after the end of major hostilities than during the war
    * raising $40 million in six months and saying its all grass roots support

    Oh God stop me before I go on.

    Sucks ha? Oh
    > wait I know, your going to say he's hiding something with the saudi

    documents.

    I hadn't gotten to that one yet.

    > This is BS to because the senetors claim they read them, and there is
    > incriminating stuff on there.You know damn well it would have leaked to

    the
    > press by now.


    Leaked hell. It was delivered by email, fax, and certified mail. The
    liberal media chose to sit on it.

    If the Democrats actually had anything they would sure as hell
    > use it because as of right now they are screwed. Shrub in 04!


    We cannot count on the usual media outlets to tell the whole story. They
    have completely ignored how he stole the 2000 election by purging thousands
    of legally registered voters from the Florida voter rolls, and then
    misleading those who showed up by saying voting day was Wednesday instead,
    closing polls early, turning away Democrats, and plenty other little
    niceties. If the so-called liberal media (you know, the ones who want to
    destroy America) wanted to take Bush down, they wouldn't have to wait on any
    more evidence than they have now.

    And all Clinton lied about was having sex.
  9. Re: The Ten comandments.

    George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:

    > well, schuh is the worst example of an atheist anyone has ever seen.


    Amen! :)

    > Ben, you keep saying "they" are the culprits. You have yet to d define who
    > "they" really are. It ain't me. this is all academic to me.


    Me too. But SOMEBODY is bringing all the lawsuits and stuff!
    In a sense it's academic to me too. But when arguments and
    legal machinations start to twist and turn the Bill of Rights
    in ways it should never go, I don't think it can just be
    academic to any of us who have to live here.

    Benj
    --
    SPAM-Guard! Remove .users (if present) to email me!
  10. Phil Duncan

    Phil Duncan Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    "Roger Sherman" <coolgrooves@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.08.29.19.09.26.422229@hotmail.com>...
    > On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 03:49:04 +0000, George Lawrence wrote:
    >
    > > I think that the concepts of Karma and Rebirth differentiate Buddhism from
    > > Atheism. These are spiritual principles that require faith; belief without
    > > proof, and an acknowledgement that their religion knows how the universe
    > > works beyond empirical evidence. who are they all chanting to anyway? :)
    > >

    >
    >
    > Well, that was something I got off of the SGI (lay organization of
    > Nichiren Daishonin Buddhism), the atheist part. There is no requirement of
    > faith without proof in Buddhism, no decree of "proof denies faith." There
    > are just things we don't know about yet...but when we learn them, that
    > doesn't mean that the universe will just up and disappear. After all, one
    > of the core beliefs of Buddhism is called "actual proof."
    >
    > And we are chanting to ourselves, and all those around us, for the
    > ultimate goal of world peace, and everyone being happy, and personally
    > fulfilled, and all that stuff. :)
    >
    >
    >
    > > --
    > > George Lawrence
    > > George's Drum Shop
    > > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > > 330 670 0800
    > > toll free 866 970 0800
    > >
    > > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > > buy each of his children a drum."
    > > -Chinese proverb
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "Roger Sherman" <coolgrooves@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > > news:pan.2003.08.28.22.59.06.138307@hotmail.com...
    > >> On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:28:45 +0000, George Lawrence wrote:
    > >>
    > >> > The "atheism is a religion" is typical fuundamentalist propaganda.

    > Atheists
    > >> > are not very organized. I was an atheist for a while and it was very

    > hard to
    > >> > find atheist material or orginizations. A basic requirement of a

    > religion is
    > >> > a faith in and dogma about an existing God, afterlife or higher
    > >> > spirituality.
    > >> >
    > >> > Atheism means "lack of belief" in a god. So an atheist is without belief

    > or,
    > >> > in other words, without religion.
    > >>
    > >> Not really true - Buddhism is essentially atheist at it's core, yet it is
    > >> definitly a religion...although the lay organization (for Nichiren
    > >> Buddhists, at least) is often referred to as the "organization for people
    > >> who hate organizations." :)
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> > Most atheists would tell you personally
    > >> > that they do not have an agenda to further separate church and state.

    > But
    > >> > there are some misguided atheists who think it is their purpose in life

    > to
    > >> > prove religion wrong. this particular battle is not one between atheists

    > and
    > >> > Christians. It is between judges doing their job and one who isn't.
    > >> >
    > >> > I am now an agnostic. An agnostic is one who is not committed to

    > believing
    > >> > in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. My personal
    > >> > philosophy is "You don't know, I don't know and neither does anybody

    > else
    > >> > and all religions are just guessing".
    > >> >
    > >> > Another myth is that the ACLU is an atheist organiziation which is a

    > bunch
    > >> > of hogwash. Most of those who work for the ACLU are actually Christians.
    > >> >
    > >> > --
    > >> > George Lawrence
    > >> > George's Drum Shop
    > >> > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > >> > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > >> > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > >> > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > >> > 330 670 0800
    > >> > toll free 866 970 0800
    > >> >
    > >> > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > >> > buy each of his children a drum."
    > >> > -Chinese proverb
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> > "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    > >> > news:%Rt3b.3610$EF6.686@news.cpqcorp.net...
    > >> >>
    > >> >> <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > >> >> news:bilb1s$l7p$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > >> >>
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > The point you are missing is that Atheism, Secular Humanism etc.
    > >> >> > are ALSO religions! They deal with viewpoints of higher powers.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> I'd like to see some objective opinions on this statement. I know that

    > I
    > >> >> don't agree with it, but that in itself isn't enough for me to dismiss

    > it.
    > I
    > >> >> don't know (of) any atheists who consider their lack of belief a

    > religion.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> > Therefore when the state adopts the symbols of those religions
    > >> >> > and establishes them by LAW they are establishing a STATE religion.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> What symbols? I would think that there are many "real" religions that

    > would
    > >> >> object to having the Judeo-Christian symbolism displayed in a court of

    > law
    > >> >> in the same way that J-Cs might object to a big statue of Ganesh

    > sitting
    > in
    > >> >> the same halls.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> > The fact that the symbols of these religions is the ABSENCE of
    > >> >> > religious symbols doesn't change the argument.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> So everywhere that there are no symbols of religion means that there is

    > a
    > de
    > >> >> facto display of atheism? I guess from a square footage basis we're

    > winning
    > >> >> then, and I guess we get to count all that wilderness that the Lord

    > created.
    > >> >> Since He didn't see it necessary to include His Brand, He must be

    > ceding
    > the
    > >> >> point.
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> > We went through all this here when the Klan decided to put up a
    > >> >> > "Christmas" cross on the statehouse lawn. (No, they didn't burn
    > >> >> > it. :)
    > >> >>
    > >> >> The Klukkers don't burn crosses; they 'light' them. Burning doesn't

    > seem
    > >> >> very Christian, does it? But lighting, well, that's different.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> > Everyone argued like you. That there should be no "religious"
    > >> >> > displays allowed at all. But happily this court discision followed

    > the
    > >> >> > law and determined that the state could NOT interfere with anyone's
    > >> >> > religious displays no matter who they were. So now the Klan cross
    > >> >> > goes up. Some Jewish group always puts up a menorah some other groups
    > >> >> > put up some of their symbols too.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> I've never seen a poster of Ganesh, and he's my favorite Hindu deity.
    > >> >> Something about the ears...
    > >> >>
    > >> >> > The Atheists find the whole thing
    > >> >> > TOTALLY offensive and are still demanding that their symbols (none)
    > >> >> > be made official by the state, but the issue has been pretty much
    > >> >> > settled. The state stays ABOVE the fray!
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> FYI, at the last world-wide atheists convention, we voted to change our
    > >> >> symbol from nothing to " ". We call it The Symbol Formerly Known As
    > >> >> Nothing. tm.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Look, when you can understand why you don't believe in all the other

    > gods
    > >> >> like Ganesh, Kane, and Zeus, you'll understand why I don't believe in

    > yours.
    > >> >> I'm just a better atheist than you are.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> And another thing: God hears prayer, right? He knows all, so He can

    > make a
    > >> >> pretty informed decision, and He doesn't forget what He's been asked to

    > do.
    > >> >> So if all those fellow Montgomerians pray once to keep the tablet in

    > place,
    > >> >> then either God says okay, or He says no. To keep praying seems to send

    > the
    > >> >> message that God should change His mind (in effect, He was wrong) or

    > that
    > >> >> perhaps He needs reminding. I don't get repeat prayer at all, even if I
    > >> >> believed in the efficacy of the same.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Glenn D.
    > >> >>
    > >> >>
    > >>
    > >> --
    > >>
    > >> peace,
    > >>
    > >> Rog
    > >>
    > >> http://www.slammingrooves.com
    > >>

    Sorry For my lack of skill this the first time I have used this as a
    communication device in 20 years. At leat using it for a reason I
    actually care about besides fun. BTW I just got back from hell in
    desguised as a thug. ou take alot of scars beleiving in something,
    Especially if you are not Fully beleiving in Your truth. What ever
    your truth is is beleive it. I know for certain that I would give my
    life for my beliefs. I have recently disproved the law of supply and
    demmand. RED: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=d...0308271837.5698dea8@posting.google.com&rnum=2

    This is not my knowledge but my gift. I chose to beleive when i was 3
    years old so I have been awake for alot longer then most people. We
    are already dead. But when I awoke I was able to start acessing the
    90%. Yeah it's true I played video games for a long time...didn't get
    laid till I was 18, but when I did get laid I took a long break...Good
    thing i did or there would have been some real problems going on right
    now with people abusing power...but rebellion only takes you so
    far...closer to death...sure it feels good as shit to escape death, or
    pull pff a prank, or make someone smile. But it feels even better to
    put my treasures in a real bank when I get to have them when I
    die....In my HUGE house....Partyinh like a big pimp daddy....BTW Hell
    has ALOT of PUSSY...but what good is pussy without love? If your on
    the right path and havent taken the mark than you will be rewarded
    with good clean safe stuff..actually you wont even care about it.. Why
    would an agnostic care about sex ?
    BTW Im American...Very Proud to be one!!! God gives the POWER to the
    people that deserve it...Im a worker at day ALL day till theres no
    money to be made...and a superhero at night ...Infiltrating hell like
    a thief in the and stealling goods sheep back. I will pray for you.
    If anyone needs prayers or wants to hear good talk to them email me.
    The time is near this world wide black out...EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND
    EVERY TOUNGE CONFESS HIS REAL NAME WHICH YOU ALREADY KNOW. Please
    dont blame "religoin or Ideaology" for perverting the truth. We are
    in the rapture right now. Wake up and smell the coffee all the
    prophecy's are true the only thing you idiots cant beleive in is
    creation..Bah..Prove it otherwse or email me and I'l pray for you and
    let God (Dont you wish you knew his real name)do the rest!
    > >>
    > >>
    > >> Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:
    > >>
    > >> 11. "Get me out of harm's way!"
    > >>
    > >> 10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"
    > >>
    > >> 9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."
    > >>
    > >> 8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this

    > administration."
    > >>
    > >> 7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton!

    > MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"
    > >>
    > >> 6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"
    > >>
    > >> 5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."
    > >>
    > >> 4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."
    > >>
    > >> 3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    > >> transformer.'"
    > >>
    > >> 2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"
    > >>
    > >> And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of

    > '03...
    > >>
    > >> 1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney.

    > I'm on a
    > >> vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you next
    > >> month."
    > >>
    > >>

    >
    > --
    >
    > peace,
    >
    > Rog
    >
    > http://www.slammingrooves.com
    >
    >
    >
    > Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:
    >
    > 11. "Get me out of harm's way!"
    >
    > 10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"
    >
    > 9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."
    >
    > 8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this administration."
    >
    > 7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton! MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"
    >
    > 6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"
    >
    > 5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."
    >
    > 4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."
    >
    > 3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    > transformer.'"
    >
    > 2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"
    >
    > And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of '03...
    >
    > 1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney. I'm on a
    > vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you next
    > month."
  11. Joey Furr

    Joey Furr Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    My proof is not for you or anyone else, my proof is for me.

    You would have to have my life experiences to have my proof; where I came
    from, how I got here, the road along the way...

    --

    ....Joey
    "...so hold the mustard on those flames, y'all." - Aaron Draper

    "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
    news:FvT3b.17076$Ih1.6076565@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
    >
    > "Although I know I shouldnt have needed proof as a Christian...as
    > a scientifically minded man I did demand proof...and got it."
    >
    > This should be interesting. Share your obvious proof with the rest of the
    > world! :)
    >
    > --
    > George Lawrence
    > George's Drum Shop
    > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > 330 670 0800
    > toll free 866 970 0800
    >
    > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > buy each of his children a drum."
    > -Chinese proverb
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Joey Furr" <joeyfurr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:JaecnZB6HKWqUNKiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
    > > "Da Parrot-chick" <just@sk.me> wrote in message
    > > news:UlM3b.623$tw6.470@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > > >
    > > > <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > > > news:binpa2$d4v$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > > > > George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > > > > > I will accept that atheism and agnosticism are world views, but

    not
    > > > > > "religions". Religion can safely be defined in the broadest sense

    as
    > > > man's
    > > > > > expression of his acknowledgement of the divine. Because neither

    > > atheism
    > > > and
    > > > > > agnosticism acknowledge the divine, they are not religions. They

    are
    > > the
    > > > > > lack of religion.
    > > > >
    > > > > Yes, saying that has been a ploy of the atheists, agnostics etc.
    > > > > for some time, and worded as you word it makes sense. But I say
    > > > > religion is not solely defined as an "expression of his

    > acknowledgement
    > > > > of the divine". Yes, Religion as found in organized churches

    > definitely
    > > > > is "religion". But that isn't quite enough. The Dictionary puts it
    > > > > this way: "A system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".
    > > >
    > > > Right. Atheists and agnostics want proof. You can't have faith and

    > > demand
    > > > proof at the same time.

    > >
    > > Incorrect. Although I know I shouldnt have needed proof as a

    > Christian...as
    > > a scientifically minded man I did demand proof...and got it.
    > > You just have to be willing to look.
    > >
    > > If you sincerely look...you WILL find proof.
    > >
    > > ...Joey
    > >
    > > Faith is the most necessary part of religion, no?
    > > > Even God says so--it's the first commandment. Believe in Me and Me

    > only.
    > > >
    > > > > I don't know about you, but that SURE describes atheists to me.
    > > > > It's not just a "world view" because it does take postions
    > > > > on supreme being(s), afterlife, etc.
    > > >
    > > > I suppose indifference is a position. I don't know of any atheists

    who
    > go
    > > > on crusades to get the faithful to ditch their religion and not care

    > about
    > > > it anymore, though.
    > > >
    > > > What that position is
    > > > > is not important what is import is that the system is
    > > > > held with "ardor an faith". Thus it seems to follow that it's
    > > > > not atheists, agnostics and the like who are without religion,
    > > > > but rather the only folks who truly have "no religion" are
    > > > > the people who could give a rat's ass about the topic!
    > > >
    > > > Only problem with that is, the fundamentalists enter at that point and

    > try
    > > > to change the laws to favor their religion over others. That's when

    the
    > > law
    > > > steps in.
    > > >
    > > > > Therefore, it follows quite logically at all the folks
    > > > > screaming "separation of church and state" when ever
    > > > > some object appears in public clearly DO have "ardor and
    > > > > faith" and are thus trying to establish as the "state
    > > > > religion" their religion!
    > > > >
    > > > > Q.E.D.
    > > >
    > > > Wow, man.
    > > >
    > > > > Benj
    > > > > (Now where the hell are my meds?)
    > > >
    > > > I didn't touch 'em--we're on different prescriptions :)
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
  12. Re: The Ten comandments.

    And there is the point exactly, in pill-concentrate form. What works for
    you works for you. It may not and probably won't work for the next fellow.
    So the religious right should stop trying to push their way of doing things
    down our throats! Let us choose our own way of dealing with religion and
    spirituality. Same way you did, Joey.

    "Joey Furr" <joeyfurr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:7nCdncG2z_I0Lc2iXTWJhQ@comcast.com...
    > My proof is not for you or anyone else, my proof is for me.
    >
    > You would have to have my life experiences to have my proof; where I came
    > from, how I got here, the road along the way...
    >
    > --
    >
    > ...Joey
    > "...so hold the mustard on those flames, y'all." - Aaron Draper
    >
    > "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
    > news:FvT3b.17076$Ih1.6076565@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
    > >
    > > "Although I know I shouldnt have needed proof as a Christian...as
    > > a scientifically minded man I did demand proof...and got it."
    > >
    > > This should be interesting. Share your obvious proof with the rest of

    the
    > > world! :)
    > >
    > > --
    > > George Lawrence
    > > George's Drum Shop
    > > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > > 330 670 0800
    > > toll free 866 970 0800
    > >
    > > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > > buy each of his children a drum."
    > > -Chinese proverb
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "Joey Furr" <joeyfurr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > > news:JaecnZB6HKWqUNKiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
    > > > "Da Parrot-chick" <just@sk.me> wrote in message
    > > > news:UlM3b.623$tw6.470@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > > > >
    > > > > <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > > > > news:binpa2$d4v$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > > > > > George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > > > > > > I will accept that atheism and agnosticism are world views, but

    > not
    > > > > > > "religions". Religion can safely be defined in the broadest

    sense
    > as
    > > > > man's
    > > > > > > expression of his acknowledgement of the divine. Because neither
    > > > atheism
    > > > > and
    > > > > > > agnosticism acknowledge the divine, they are not religions. They

    > are
    > > > the
    > > > > > > lack of religion.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Yes, saying that has been a ploy of the atheists, agnostics etc.
    > > > > > for some time, and worded as you word it makes sense. But I say
    > > > > > religion is not solely defined as an "expression of his

    > > acknowledgement
    > > > > > of the divine". Yes, Religion as found in organized churches

    > > definitely
    > > > > > is "religion". But that isn't quite enough. The Dictionary puts it
    > > > > > this way: "A system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".
    > > > >
    > > > > Right. Atheists and agnostics want proof. You can't have faith and
    > > > demand
    > > > > proof at the same time.
    > > >
    > > > Incorrect. Although I know I shouldnt have needed proof as a

    > > Christian...as
    > > > a scientifically minded man I did demand proof...and got it.
    > > > You just have to be willing to look.
    > > >
    > > > If you sincerely look...you WILL find proof.
    > > >
    > > > ...Joey
    > > >
    > > > Faith is the most necessary part of religion, no?
    > > > > Even God says so--it's the first commandment. Believe in Me and Me

    > > only.
    > > > >
    > > > > > I don't know about you, but that SURE describes atheists to me.
    > > > > > It's not just a "world view" because it does take postions
    > > > > > on supreme being(s), afterlife, etc.
    > > > >
    > > > > I suppose indifference is a position. I don't know of any atheists

    > who
    > > go
    > > > > on crusades to get the faithful to ditch their religion and not care

    > > about
    > > > > it anymore, though.
    > > > >
    > > > > What that position is
    > > > > > is not important what is import is that the system is
    > > > > > held with "ardor an faith". Thus it seems to follow that it's
    > > > > > not atheists, agnostics and the like who are without religion,
    > > > > > but rather the only folks who truly have "no religion" are
    > > > > > the people who could give a rat's ass about the topic!
    > > > >
    > > > > Only problem with that is, the fundamentalists enter at that point

    and
    > > try
    > > > > to change the laws to favor their religion over others. That's when

    > the
    > > > law
    > > > > steps in.
    > > > >
    > > > > > Therefore, it follows quite logically at all the folks
    > > > > > screaming "separation of church and state" when ever
    > > > > > some object appears in public clearly DO have "ardor and
    > > > > > faith" and are thus trying to establish as the "state
    > > > > > religion" their religion!
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Q.E.D.
    > > > >
    > > > > Wow, man.
    > > > >
    > > > > > Benj
    > > > > > (Now where the hell are my meds?)
    > > > >
    > > > > I didn't touch 'em--we're on different prescriptions :)
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
  13. NoSheeples

    NoSheeples Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    >* repeated warnings about terrorists hijacking planes
    >* his many lies he repeated during


    Ok Hilary, what ever you say. ;o)


    >* his many lies he repeated during the campaign (never been arrested,
    >stealing quotes from others without giving credit, fudging numbers on his
    >tax plan,


    Like he is the first to do this? I didn't inhale remeber? Please....

    >and don't even get me started on his Air National Guard record)


    This is total conjecture, and can't be backed with tangable proof.

    > secrecy surrounding Halliburton and the restructuring plan of Iraq after
    >the war


    More liberal bull shit. There is no proof of anything. So far all your spewing
    is grassy nole shit.


    > his "Bring it on" threat that found more US and British soldiers killed
    >after the end of major hostilities than during the war


    To somehow suggest that radical saddam reminants would not have try to distrupt
    the system becuase of something Bush said is ignorant beyond belief.

    >Oh God stop me before I go on.


    Don't stop I want people to see how stupid you are.


    >Leaked hell. It was delivered by email, fax, and certified mail. The
    >liberal media chose to sit on it.
    >


    Like I said please don't stop. You really think the Matt druges of the world,
    would not have gotton hold of this? Put down the crack pipe.

    >They
    >have completely ignored how he stole the 2000 election by purging thousands
    >of legally registered voters from the Florida voter rolls,


    Did it ever occure to you that this is nonsense?

    >And all Clinton lied about was having sex.


    Clinton Commited purgery and got cought by the American public. It's
    intersting that you think a liar only lies about specific things. If guy
    can't be faithfull to his wife why would expect him to be faithfull to his
    counrty?



    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty is
    a well armed lamb protesting the vote."
  14. NoSheeples

    NoSheeples Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    >And there is the point exactly, in pill-concentrate form. What works for
    >you works for you. It may not and probably won't work for the next fellow.
    >So the religious right should stop trying to push their way of doing things
    >down our throats! Let us choose our own way of dealing with


    You're just a religophobe. The fundementalist Christians are no worse then a
    car salesmen. They don't bust your door down and try to force anything on you.
    The ones that fear other religions are weak minded, and are afraid they might
    be converted. Jahovas witness just rang my door bell today and I told them I
    was not interseted and they left nicley. I will tell you what I have problem.
    How about Homosexuals trying to force their lifestyle down the throat of all
    Americans? I have had to turn the TV of latley to stop the repugnent trash from
    entering my home. These people want to change the definition of marrage, they
    want special rights, and a host of other things.
    Don't talk to me about frocing crap down peoples throats untill you look at who
    is really trying to change sociaty. Most Christians are decent people.They have
    simply found a belief system that works miricals for many, and want to share
    it. If you don't like message then simply ignore it. I have never had a
    christian group knock at my door. I would like to know where this force down
    your throat stuff comes from?

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty is
    a well armed lamb protesting the vote."
  15. Joey Furr

    Joey Furr Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    Please explain how you have had someone else's way of doing things 'pushed
    down your throat'. Be specific.

    --

    ....Joey
    "...so hold the mustard on those flames, y'all." - Aaron Draper

    "Da Parrot-chick" <just@sk.me> wrote in message
    news:z934b.2074$Lk5.1262@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > And there is the point exactly, in pill-concentrate form. What works for
    > you works for you. It may not and probably won't work for the next

    fellow.
    > So the religious right should stop trying to push their way of doing

    things
    > down our throats! Let us choose our own way of dealing with religion and
    > spirituality. Same way you did, Joey.
    >
    > "Joey Furr" <joeyfurr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > news:7nCdncG2z_I0Lc2iXTWJhQ@comcast.com...
    > > My proof is not for you or anyone else, my proof is for me.
    > >
    > > You would have to have my life experiences to have my proof; where I

    came
    > > from, how I got here, the road along the way...
    > >
    > > --
    > >
    > > ...Joey
    > > "...so hold the mustard on those flames, y'all." - Aaron Draper
    > >
    > > "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
    > > news:FvT3b.17076$Ih1.6076565@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
    > > >
    > > > "Although I know I shouldnt have needed proof as a Christian...as
    > > > a scientifically minded man I did demand proof...and got it."
    > > >
    > > > This should be interesting. Share your obvious proof with the rest of

    > the
    > > > world! :)
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > George Lawrence
    > > > George's Drum Shop
    > > > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > > > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > > > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > > > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > > > 330 670 0800
    > > > toll free 866 970 0800
    > > >
    > > > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > > > buy each of his children a drum."
    > > > -Chinese proverb
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "Joey Furr" <joeyfurr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > > > news:JaecnZB6HKWqUNKiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
    > > > > "Da Parrot-chick" <just@sk.me> wrote in message
    > > > > news:UlM3b.623$tw6.470@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > > > > >
    > > > > > <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > > > > > news:binpa2$d4v$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > > > > > > George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > > > > > > > I will accept that atheism and agnosticism are world views,

    but
    > > not
    > > > > > > > "religions". Religion can safely be defined in the broadest

    > sense
    > > as
    > > > > > man's
    > > > > > > > expression of his acknowledgement of the divine. Because

    neither
    > > > > atheism
    > > > > > and
    > > > > > > > agnosticism acknowledge the divine, they are not religions.

    They
    > > are
    > > > > the
    > > > > > > > lack of religion.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Yes, saying that has been a ploy of the atheists, agnostics etc.
    > > > > > > for some time, and worded as you word it makes sense. But I say
    > > > > > > religion is not solely defined as an "expression of his
    > > > acknowledgement
    > > > > > > of the divine". Yes, Religion as found in organized churches
    > > > definitely
    > > > > > > is "religion". But that isn't quite enough. The Dictionary puts

    it
    > > > > > > this way: "A system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Right. Atheists and agnostics want proof. You can't have faith

    and
    > > > > demand
    > > > > > proof at the same time.
    > > > >
    > > > > Incorrect. Although I know I shouldnt have needed proof as a
    > > > Christian...as
    > > > > a scientifically minded man I did demand proof...and got it.
    > > > > You just have to be willing to look.
    > > > >
    > > > > If you sincerely look...you WILL find proof.
    > > > >
    > > > > ...Joey
    > > > >
    > > > > Faith is the most necessary part of religion, no?
    > > > > > Even God says so--it's the first commandment. Believe in Me and

    Me
    > > > only.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > I don't know about you, but that SURE describes atheists to me.
    > > > > > > It's not just a "world view" because it does take postions
    > > > > > > on supreme being(s), afterlife, etc.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I suppose indifference is a position. I don't know of any

    atheists
    > > who
    > > > go
    > > > > > on crusades to get the faithful to ditch their religion and not

    care
    > > > about
    > > > > > it anymore, though.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > What that position is
    > > > > > > is not important what is import is that the system is
    > > > > > > held with "ardor an faith". Thus it seems to follow that it's
    > > > > > > not atheists, agnostics and the like who are without religion,
    > > > > > > but rather the only folks who truly have "no religion" are
    > > > > > > the people who could give a rat's ass about the topic!
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Only problem with that is, the fundamentalists enter at that point

    > and
    > > > try
    > > > > > to change the laws to favor their religion over others. That's

    when
    > > the
    > > > > law
    > > > > > steps in.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > Therefore, it follows quite logically at all the folks
    > > > > > > screaming "separation of church and state" when ever
    > > > > > > some object appears in public clearly DO have "ardor and
    > > > > > > faith" and are thus trying to establish as the "state
    > > > > > > religion" their religion!
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Q.E.D.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Wow, man.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > Benj
    > > > > > > (Now where the hell are my meds?)
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I didn't touch 'em--we're on different prescriptions :)
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
  16. Joey Furr

    Joey Furr Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    Please stay off my side. Thank you.

    --

    ....Joey
    "...so hold the mustard on those flames, y'all." - Aaron Draper

    "NoSheeples" <n2new@aol.comNsheep> wrote in message
    news:20030830115944.07457.00000111@mb-m27.aol.com...
    > >And there is the point exactly, in pill-concentrate form. What works for
    > >you works for you. It may not and probably won't work for the next

    fellow.
    > >So the religious right should stop trying to push their way of doing

    things
    > >down our throats! Let us choose our own way of dealing with

    >
    > You're just a religophobe. The fundementalist Christians are no worse

    then a
    > car salesmen. They don't bust your door down and try to force anything on

    you.
    > The ones that fear other religions are weak minded, and are afraid they

    might
    > be converted. Jahovas witness just rang my door bell today and I told them

    I
    > was not interseted and they left nicley. I will tell you what I have

    problem.
    > How about Homosexuals trying to force their lifestyle down the throat of

    all
    > Americans? I have had to turn the TV of latley to stop the repugnent trash

    from
    > entering my home. These people want to change the definition of marrage,

    they
    > want special rights, and a host of other things.
    > Don't talk to me about frocing crap down peoples throats untill you look

    at who
    > is really trying to change sociaty. Most Christians are decent people.They

    have
    > simply found a belief system that works miricals for many, and want to

    share
    > it. If you don't like message then simply ignore it. I have never had a
    > christian group knock at my door. I would like to know where this force

    down
    > your throat stuff comes from?
    >
    > "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty

    is
    > a well armed lamb protesting the vote."
    >
  17. NoSheeples

    NoSheeples Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    >Please stay off my side. Thank you.
    >


    What is your side?

    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch. Liberty is
    a well armed lamb protesting the vote."
  18. Re: The Ten comandments.

    You brought up science. It the proof is scientific then it can't be
    subjective. Not that I question your motives or sincerity.

    --
    George Lawrence
    George's Drum Shop
    1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    Copley, Ohio 44321
    http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    http://www.Drumguru.com
    330 670 0800
    toll free 866 970 0800

    "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    buy each of his children a drum."
    -Chinese proverb




    "Joey Furr" <joeyfurr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:7nCdncG2z_I0Lc2iXTWJhQ@comcast.com...
    > My proof is not for you or anyone else, my proof is for me.
    >
    > You would have to have my life experiences to have my proof; where I came
    > from, how I got here, the road along the way...
    >
    > --
    >
    > ...Joey
    > "...so hold the mustard on those flames, y'all." - Aaron Draper
    >
    > "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
    > news:FvT3b.17076$Ih1.6076565@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
    > >
    > > "Although I know I shouldnt have needed proof as a Christian...as
    > > a scientifically minded man I did demand proof...and got it."
    > >
    > > This should be interesting. Share your obvious proof with the rest of

    the
    > > world! :)
    > >
    > > --
    > > George Lawrence
    > > George's Drum Shop
    > > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > > 330 670 0800
    > > toll free 866 970 0800
    > >
    > > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > > buy each of his children a drum."
    > > -Chinese proverb
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > "Joey Furr" <joeyfurr@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    > > news:JaecnZB6HKWqUNKiXTWJhg@comcast.com...
    > > > "Da Parrot-chick" <just@sk.me> wrote in message
    > > > news:UlM3b.623$tw6.470@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...
    > > > >
    > > > > <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > > > > news:binpa2$d4v$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > > > > > George Lawrence <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote:
    > > > > > > I will accept that atheism and agnosticism are world views, but

    > not
    > > > > > > "religions". Religion can safely be defined in the broadest

    sense
    > as
    > > > > man's
    > > > > > > expression of his acknowledgement of the divine. Because neither
    > > > atheism
    > > > > and
    > > > > > > agnosticism acknowledge the divine, they are not religions. They

    > are
    > > > the
    > > > > > > lack of religion.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Yes, saying that has been a ploy of the atheists, agnostics etc.
    > > > > > for some time, and worded as you word it makes sense. But I say
    > > > > > religion is not solely defined as an "expression of his

    > > acknowledgement
    > > > > > of the divine". Yes, Religion as found in organized churches

    > > definitely
    > > > > > is "religion". But that isn't quite enough. The Dictionary puts it
    > > > > > this way: "A system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith".
    > > > >
    > > > > Right. Atheists and agnostics want proof. You can't have faith and
    > > > demand
    > > > > proof at the same time.
    > > >
    > > > Incorrect. Although I know I shouldnt have needed proof as a

    > > Christian...as
    > > > a scientifically minded man I did demand proof...and got it.
    > > > You just have to be willing to look.
    > > >
    > > > If you sincerely look...you WILL find proof.
    > > >
    > > > ...Joey
    > > >
    > > > Faith is the most necessary part of religion, no?
    > > > > Even God says so--it's the first commandment. Believe in Me and Me

    > > only.
    > > > >
    > > > > > I don't know about you, but that SURE describes atheists to me.
    > > > > > It's not just a "world view" because it does take postions
    > > > > > on supreme being(s), afterlife, etc.
    > > > >
    > > > > I suppose indifference is a position. I don't know of any atheists

    > who
    > > go
    > > > > on crusades to get the faithful to ditch their religion and not care

    > > about
    > > > > it anymore, though.
    > > > >
    > > > > What that position is
    > > > > > is not important what is import is that the system is
    > > > > > held with "ardor an faith". Thus it seems to follow that it's
    > > > > > not atheists, agnostics and the like who are without religion,
    > > > > > but rather the only folks who truly have "no religion" are
    > > > > > the people who could give a rat's ass about the topic!
    > > > >
    > > > > Only problem with that is, the fundamentalists enter at that point

    and
    > > try
    > > > > to change the laws to favor their religion over others. That's when

    > the
    > > > law
    > > > > steps in.
    > > > >
    > > > > > Therefore, it follows quite logically at all the folks
    > > > > > screaming "separation of church and state" when ever
    > > > > > some object appears in public clearly DO have "ardor and
    > > > > > faith" and are thus trying to establish as the "state
    > > > > > religion" their religion!
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Q.E.D.
    > > > >
    > > > > Wow, man.
    > > > >
    > > > > > Benj
    > > > > > (Now where the hell are my meds?)
    > > > >
    > > > > I didn't touch 'em--we're on different prescriptions :)
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
  19. Glenn Dowdy

    Glenn Dowdy Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
    news:eek:ae4b.17290$Ih1.6312134@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
    > You brought up science. It the proof is scientific then it can't be
    > subjective. Not that I question your motives or sincerity.


    That's my point. You don't proof, you have faith. And that's good enough for
    you.

    Glenn D.
  20. Robert Schuh

    Robert Schuh Guest

    Re: The Ten comandments.

    I suggest that you run, don't walk, to your nearest Psychiatric hospital.

    Phil Duncan wrote:

    > "Roger Sherman" <coolgrooves@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2003.08.29.19.09.26.422229@hotmail.com>...
    > > On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 03:49:04 +0000, George Lawrence wrote:
    > >
    > > > I think that the concepts of Karma and Rebirth differentiate Buddhism from
    > > > Atheism. These are spiritual principles that require faith; belief without
    > > > proof, and an acknowledgement that their religion knows how the universe
    > > > works beyond empirical evidence. who are they all chanting to anyway? :)
    > > >

    > >
    > >
    > > Well, that was something I got off of the SGI (lay organization of
    > > Nichiren Daishonin Buddhism), the atheist part. There is no requirement of
    > > faith without proof in Buddhism, no decree of "proof denies faith." There
    > > are just things we don't know about yet...but when we learn them, that
    > > doesn't mean that the universe will just up and disappear. After all, one
    > > of the core beliefs of Buddhism is called "actual proof."
    > >
    > > And we are chanting to ourselves, and all those around us, for the
    > > ultimate goal of world peace, and everyone being happy, and personally
    > > fulfilled, and all that stuff. :)
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > > --
    > > > George Lawrence
    > > > George's Drum Shop
    > > > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > > > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > > > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > > > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > > > 330 670 0800
    > > > toll free 866 970 0800
    > > >
    > > > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > > > buy each of his children a drum."
    > > > -Chinese proverb
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "Roger Sherman" <coolgrooves@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > > > news:pan.2003.08.28.22.59.06.138307@hotmail.com...
    > > >> On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:28:45 +0000, George Lawrence wrote:
    > > >>
    > > >> > The "atheism is a religion" is typical fuundamentalist propaganda.

    > > Atheists
    > > >> > are not very organized. I was an atheist for a while and it was very

    > > hard to
    > > >> > find atheist material or orginizations. A basic requirement of a

    > > religion is
    > > >> > a faith in and dogma about an existing God, afterlife or higher
    > > >> > spirituality.
    > > >> >
    > > >> > Atheism means "lack of belief" in a god. So an atheist is without belief

    > > or,
    > > >> > in other words, without religion.
    > > >>
    > > >> Not really true - Buddhism is essentially atheist at it's core, yet it is
    > > >> definitly a religion...although the lay organization (for Nichiren
    > > >> Buddhists, at least) is often referred to as the "organization for people
    > > >> who hate organizations." :)
    > > >>
    > > >>
    > > >>
    > > >>
    > > >> > Most atheists would tell you personally
    > > >> > that they do not have an agenda to further separate church and state.

    > > But
    > > >> > there are some misguided atheists who think it is their purpose in life

    > > to
    > > >> > prove religion wrong. this particular battle is not one between atheists

    > > and
    > > >> > Christians. It is between judges doing their job and one who isn't.
    > > >> >
    > > >> > I am now an agnostic. An agnostic is one who is not committed to

    > > believing
    > > >> > in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god. My personal
    > > >> > philosophy is "You don't know, I don't know and neither does anybody

    > > else
    > > >> > and all religions are just guessing".
    > > >> >
    > > >> > Another myth is that the ACLU is an atheist organiziation which is a

    > > bunch
    > > >> > of hogwash. Most of those who work for the ACLU are actually Christians.
    > > >> >
    > > >> > --
    > > >> > George Lawrence
    > > >> > George's Drum Shop
    > > >> > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > > >> > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > > >> > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > > >> > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > > >> > 330 670 0800
    > > >> > toll free 866 970 0800
    > > >> >
    > > >> > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > > >> > buy each of his children a drum."
    > > >> > -Chinese proverb
    > > >> >
    > > >> >
    > > >> >
    > > >> >
    > > >> > "Glenn Dowdy" <glenn.dowdy@nospam.com> wrote in message
    > > >> > news:%Rt3b.3610$EF6.686@news.cpqcorp.net...
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> <bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net> wrote in message
    > > >> >> news:bilb1s$l7p$1@tribune.oar.net...
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> >
    > > >> >> > The point you are missing is that Atheism, Secular Humanism etc.
    > > >> >> > are ALSO religions! They deal with viewpoints of higher powers.
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> I'd like to see some objective opinions on this statement. I know that

    > > I
    > > >> >> don't agree with it, but that in itself isn't enough for me to dismiss

    > > it.
    > > I
    > > >> >> don't know (of) any atheists who consider their lack of belief a

    > > religion.
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> > Therefore when the state adopts the symbols of those religions
    > > >> >> > and establishes them by LAW they are establishing a STATE religion.
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> What symbols? I would think that there are many "real" religions that

    > > would
    > > >> >> object to having the Judeo-Christian symbolism displayed in a court of

    > > law
    > > >> >> in the same way that J-Cs might object to a big statue of Ganesh

    > > sitting
    > > in
    > > >> >> the same halls.
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> > The fact that the symbols of these religions is the ABSENCE of
    > > >> >> > religious symbols doesn't change the argument.
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> So everywhere that there are no symbols of religion means that there is

    > > a
    > > de
    > > >> >> facto display of atheism? I guess from a square footage basis we're

    > > winning
    > > >> >> then, and I guess we get to count all that wilderness that the Lord

    > > created.
    > > >> >> Since He didn't see it necessary to include His Brand, He must be

    > > ceding
    > > the
    > > >> >> point.
    > > >> >> >
    > > >> >> > We went through all this here when the Klan decided to put up a
    > > >> >> > "Christmas" cross on the statehouse lawn. (No, they didn't burn
    > > >> >> > it. :)
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> The Klukkers don't burn crosses; they 'light' them. Burning doesn't

    > > seem
    > > >> >> very Christian, does it? But lighting, well, that's different.
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> > Everyone argued like you. That there should be no "religious"
    > > >> >> > displays allowed at all. But happily this court discision followed

    > > the
    > > >> >> > law and determined that the state could NOT interfere with anyone's
    > > >> >> > religious displays no matter who they were. So now the Klan cross
    > > >> >> > goes up. Some Jewish group always puts up a menorah some other groups
    > > >> >> > put up some of their symbols too.
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> I've never seen a poster of Ganesh, and he's my favorite Hindu deity.
    > > >> >> Something about the ears...
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> > The Atheists find the whole thing
    > > >> >> > TOTALLY offensive and are still demanding that their symbols (none)
    > > >> >> > be made official by the state, but the issue has been pretty much
    > > >> >> > settled. The state stays ABOVE the fray!
    > > >> >> >
    > > >> >> FYI, at the last world-wide atheists convention, we voted to change our
    > > >> >> symbol from nothing to " ". We call it The Symbol Formerly Known As
    > > >> >> Nothing. tm.
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> Look, when you can understand why you don't believe in all the other

    > > gods
    > > >> >> like Ganesh, Kane, and Zeus, you'll understand why I don't believe in

    > > yours.
    > > >> >> I'm just a better atheist than you are.
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> And another thing: God hears prayer, right? He knows all, so He can

    > > make a
    > > >> >> pretty informed decision, and He doesn't forget what He's been asked to

    > > do.
    > > >> >> So if all those fellow Montgomerians pray once to keep the tablet in

    > > place,
    > > >> >> then either God says okay, or He says no. To keep praying seems to send

    > > the
    > > >> >> message that God should change His mind (in effect, He was wrong) or

    > > that
    > > >> >> perhaps He needs reminding. I don't get repeat prayer at all, even if I
    > > >> >> believed in the efficacy of the same.
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >> Glenn D.
    > > >> >>
    > > >> >>
    > > >>
    > > >> --
    > > >>
    > > >> peace,
    > > >>
    > > >> Rog
    > > >>
    > > >> http://www.slammingrooves.com
    > > >>

    > Sorry For my lack of skill this the first time I have used this as a
    > communication device in 20 years. At leat using it for a reason I
    > actually care about besides fun. BTW I just got back from hell in
    > desguised as a thug. ou take alot of scars beleiving in something,
    > Especially if you are not Fully beleiving in Your truth. What ever
    > your truth is is beleive it. I know for certain that I would give my
    > life for my beliefs. I have recently disproved the law of supply and
    > demmand. RED: http://groups.google.com/groups?q=d...0308271837.5698dea8@posting.google.com&rnum=2
    >
    > This is not my knowledge but my gift. I chose to beleive when i was 3
    > years old so I have been awake for alot longer then most people. We
    > are already dead. But when I awoke I was able to start acessing the
    > 90%. Yeah it's true I played video games for a long time...didn't get
    > laid till I was 18, but when I did get laid I took a long break...Good
    > thing i did or there would have been some real problems going on right
    > now with people abusing power...but rebellion only takes you so
    > far...closer to death...sure it feels good as shit to escape death, or
    > pull pff a prank, or make someone smile. But it feels even better to
    > put my treasures in a real bank when I get to have them when I
    > die....In my HUGE house....Partyinh like a big pimp daddy....BTW Hell
    > has ALOT of PUSSY...but what good is pussy without love? If your on
    > the right path and havent taken the mark than you will be rewarded
    > with good clean safe stuff..actually you wont even care about it.. Why
    > would an agnostic care about sex ?
    > BTW Im American...Very Proud to be one!!! God gives the POWER to the
    > people that deserve it...Im a worker at day ALL day till theres no
    > money to be made...and a superhero at night ...Infiltrating hell like
    > a thief in the and stealling goods sheep back. I will pray for you.
    > If anyone needs prayers or wants to hear good talk to them email me.
    > The time is near this world wide black out...EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND
    > EVERY TOUNGE CONFESS HIS REAL NAME WHICH YOU ALREADY KNOW. Please
    > dont blame "religoin or Ideaology" for perverting the truth. We are
    > in the rapture right now. Wake up and smell the coffee all the
    > prophecy's are true the only thing you idiots cant beleive in is
    > creation..Bah..Prove it otherwse or email me and I'l pray for you and
    > let God (Dont you wish you knew his real name)do the rest!
    > > >>
    > > >>
    > > >> Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:
    > > >>
    > > >> 11. "Get me out of harm's way!"
    > > >>
    > > >> 10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"
    > > >>
    > > >> 9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."
    > > >>
    > > >> 8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this

    > > administration."
    > > >>
    > > >> 7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton!

    > > MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"
    > > >>
    > > >> 6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"
    > > >>
    > > >> 5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."
    > > >>
    > > >> 4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."
    > > >>
    > > >> 3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    > > >> transformer.'"
    > > >>
    > > >> 2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"
    > > >>
    > > >> And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of

    > > '03...
    > > >>
    > > >> 1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney.

    > > I'm on a
    > > >> vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you next
    > > >> month."
    > > >>
    > > >>

    > >
    > > --
    > >
    > > peace,
    > >
    > > Rog
    > >
    > > http://www.slammingrooves.com
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > Top 11 administration reactions to the Great Bush Blackout of '03:
    > >
    > > 11. "Get me out of harm's way!"
    > >
    > > 10. "Upgrading the infrastructure? Sounds like a job for Halliburton!"
    > >
    > > 9. "We've got to do something ... Oh, wait. They're all blue states."
    > >
    > > 8. "If only we had more people with energy experience in this administration."
    > >
    > > 7. "So much for your appearance on The Daily Show, Ms. Clinton! MUHWWAHAHAHAHA!"
    > >
    > > 6. "The energy industry needs a tax cut!"
    > >
    > > 5. "Endangered arctic wildlife, allow me to introduce Mr. Backhoe."
    > >
    > > 4. "Whatever, I'm going jogging."
    > >
    > > 3. "I'm telling you, we can sell it, 'Bill Clinton's penis took out a
    > > transformer.'"
    > >
    > > 2. "Should we cancel the fundraiser? HAHAHAHAHHAHA!"
    > >
    > > And the number one administration reaction to the Great Bush Blackout of '03...
    > >
    > > 1. "Hello, you've reached the office of de facto president Dick Cheney. I'm on a
    > > vacation, but if you leave your name and number, I'll get back to you next
    > > month."





    --
    Robert Schuh
    "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
    intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
    the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
    the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
    - Nietzsche

    "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa

Share This Page