Power outage

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by Don Cooper, Aug 14, 2003.

  1. Don Cooper

    Don Cooper Guest

    Hope everyone is OK. I lived in NYC for the 1965 and 1977 ones.


    Be safe,

    Don
  2. Dale Farmer

    Dale Farmer Guest

    Don Cooper wrote:

    > Hope everyone is OK. I lived in NYC for the 1965 and 1977 ones.
    >
    > Be safe,
    >
    > Don


    Anybody lose anything when the lights went out?

    --Dale
  3. i knew this was comming a long time ago. im a electrician. so many people take
    power for granted.
    vk
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    On 2003-08-15 scotfraser@aol.com(ScotFraser) said:
    >PRI's 'Marketplace', an avowedly pro-business syndicated radio show,
    >pretty squarely laid the blame on utility deregulation today. They
    >say the move away from smaller independent local municipal-run
    >utilities toward big conglomerate for-profit energy providers has
    >significantly weakened the robustness of the infrastructure. Check
    >out this morning's show for a better nuts & bolts explanation.

    HEre we have it once again. GOvernment aided and abetted greed
    lowering the quality of life and weakening the infrastructures we
    depend on. SOunds like business as usual don't it?

    Just try selling a little bit of excess capacity from your small wind
    farm back to the grid. <hmmmm> I have a buddy back in Iowa where I
    lived told me some horror stories 'bout that one.

    <Oops, don't sound like libertarian me, but I get rather frosted when
    the corporate greedmongers can drive out local business in favor of
    bigger bottom lines for themselves and then fail to deliver on waht
    they tell the consumers the benefits are.

    I dare all the sheep to elect Dubya again in '04.

    <hrrumph>




    Richard Webb
    Electric Spider Productions
    replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email.


    --
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    On 2003-08-14 Drummer@ImJohn.com said:
    >Could you explain how this sort of
    >multi-state outage can even happen? If it's really that fragile of
    >a system it seems like it wouldn't take much of a natural disaster
    >or terrorist strike to put the whole of North America in darkness.


    Um, it's called dominoes. ONe major powerplant goes offline for some
    reason. the grid can't use its capabilities. everybody's still
    drawing the same amount of juice for the air conditioners; washers;
    dryers; Tv/radio transmitters; etc. etc. THe load falls on those
    remaining. Another one goes down because it can't meet the demand,
    and on and on and ...

    wHich is why my ham radio station runs on some float charged gel cell
    batteries.

    REgards,




    Richard Webb
    Electric Spider Productions
    replace anything before the @ symbol with elspider for real email.


    --



    Amazing how much tape is on a 10" reel, when it's not, isn't it?
  6. John L Rice

    John L Rice Guest

    "BESTnewEnglandDJ" <bestnewenglanddj@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:20030814224517.07201.00000014@mb-m26.aol.com...
    > i knew this was comming a long time ago. im a electrician. so many people

    take
    > power for granted.
    > vk


    I remember something similar happening a few years ago that affected several
    states in the southwest US ( about a week before the sci-fi move
    Independence Day came out, prompting me to muse that it might be a real
    alien invasion or a publicity stunt for the movie ). Supposedly they traced
    the cause to an oak tree branch touching a power line???

    Could you explain how this sort of multi-state outage can even happen? If
    it's really that fragile of a system it seems like it wouldn't take much of
    a natural disaster or terrorist strike to put the whole of North America in
    darkness.


    Best wishes for a safe return to electric power to everyone affected by the
    blackout.

    John L Rice
    Drummer@ImJohn.com
  7. Bryson

    Bryson Guest

    They can't hear you, Don.



    Don Cooper wrote:

    > Hope everyone is OK. I lived in NYC for the 1965 and 1977 ones.
    >
    >
    > Be safe,
    >
    > Don
  8. Bryson

    Bryson Guest

    AN

    BESTnewEnglandDJ wrote:

    > i knew this was comming a long time ago. im a electrician. so many people take
    > power for granted.
    > vk
  9. Don Cooper

    Don Cooper Guest

    Bryson wrote:

    > They can't hear you, Don.



    It's just like Wolf Blitzer's repeated warnings about the dangers of
    using candles. At least we have archives.


    Don
  10. Dale Farmer

    Dale Farmer Guest

    John L Rice wrote:

    > "BESTnewEnglandDJ" <bestnewenglanddj@aol.com> wrote in message
    > news:20030814224517.07201.00000014@mb-m26.aol.com...
    > > i knew this was comming a long time ago. im a electrician. so many people

    > take
    > > power for granted.
    > > vk

    >
    > I remember something similar happening a few years ago that affected several
    > states in the southwest US ( about a week before the sci-fi move
    > Independence Day came out, prompting me to muse that it might be a real
    > alien invasion or a publicity stunt for the movie ). Supposedly they traced
    > the cause to an oak tree branch touching a power line???
    >
    > Could you explain how this sort of multi-state outage can even happen? If
    > it's really that fragile of a system it seems like it wouldn't take much of
    > a natural disaster or terrorist strike to put the whole of North America in
    > darkness.
    >
    > Best wishes for a safe return to electric power to everyone affected by the
    > blackout.
    >
    > John L Rice
    > Drummer@ImJohn.com


    Whatever caused this particular outage. ( It will be something stupid, like a
    lightning strike on a transmission line, or an failed component in a generator
    plant. ) The root cause it the huge amount of power we use in urban society,
    and the immense distances that the power has to travel from generator to
    consumer. There is very little margin, and the huge costs of building more
    generator plants, transmission lines, etc. especially in these days of NIMBY
    and the eco-luddites, work against the power companies building spare
    capacity.

    --Dale

    ( Hmmmm.... NIMBY and the eco-luddites. Sounds like a bad band name. )
  11. ScotFraser

    ScotFraser Guest

    << Could you explain how this sort of multi-state outage can even happen? If
    it's really that fragile of a system it seems like it wouldn't take much of
    a natural disaster or terrorist strike to put the whole of North America in
    darkness. >>

    PRI's 'Marketplace', an avowedly pro-business syndicated radio show, pretty
    squarely laid the blame on utility deregulation today. They say the move away
    from smaller independent local municipal-run utilities toward big conglomerate
    for-profit energy providers has significantly weakened the robustness of the
    infrastructure. Check out this morning's show for a better nuts & bolts
    explanation.


    Scott Fraser
  12. ScotFraser

    ScotFraser Guest

    << especially in these days of NIMBY
    and the eco-luddites, >>

    More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that the
    "eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is small
    decentralized local power generating ability through alternative sources.

    Scott Fraser
  13. ScotFraser wrote:
    >
    >> especially in these days of NIMBY and the eco-luddites

    >
    > More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that the
    > "eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is small
    > decentralized local power generating ability through alternative sources.


    The utilities like the idea of distributed generation, too--but in their
    version the distributed generators live in your neighborhood but are
    still owned by the utility. Read up a bit on the laundry list of dirty
    tricks and backroom deals the utilities have pulled (and continue to
    pull) with net metering.

    IOUs have caused a world of grief over the past couple of decades.
    Anyone else notice that the municipal utilities were suffering a bit
    less during all the CA power shenanigans awhile back? LADWP and SMUD
    customers were the lucky ones.
  14. ScotFraser <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote:

    > << especially in these days of NIMBY
    > and the eco-luddites, >>


    > More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that the
    > "eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is small
    > decentralized local power generating ability through alternative sources.


    And reduction of demand. We're not far from the point at which more
    cannot be delivered. We better start thinking about this.

    --
    hank alrich * secret mountain
    audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
    "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"
  15. Dale Farmer

    Dale Farmer Guest

    ScotFraser wrote:

    > << especially in these days of NIMBY
    > and the eco-luddites, >>
    >
    > More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that the
    > "eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is small
    > decentralized local power generating ability through alternative sources.
    >
    > Scott Fraser


    Well, the most recent ongoing example of NIMBY eco-luddites up here
    around Boston is the opposition to the wind farm offshore of Martha's
    Vineyard. Totally clean power, Built on a barely submerged hazard to
    navigation several miles away from the island. The real reason is that
    the folks on the island feel that the towers will spoil their view, and since
    they have money, lawyers, and the liberal left, they are trotting out all
    the usual eco-luddite mantras, slightly snipped and molded to fit this
    particular situation. *feh*
    For an older local example, the Seabrook, NH power plant. Direct
    legal costs added up to something like 15% of the total plant cost. Indirect
    costs, basically rebuilding things to meet the latest court order, and the
    costs of stopping and starting construction dozens of times made the plant
    construction cost more than double.
    Most of these people mean well, and have a surface understanding of
    some of the issues, but their understanding is systematically been
    propagandized by extremists. Scientific thought and logical thinking get
    replaced by sound bites and articles of faith that are never questioned by
    the faithful. ANyone who questions these base beliefs is labeled an
    "industry shill" and driven away by the horde with fingers in their ears
    chanting their slogans. Joe Stalin had a name for these kinds of folks.
    He called them useful idiots.

    --Dale
  16. Les Cargill

    Les Cargill Guest

    LeBaron & Alrich wrote:
    >
    > ScotFraser <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote:
    >
    > > << especially in these days of NIMBY
    > > and the eco-luddites, >>

    >
    > > More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that the
    > > "eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is small
    > > decentralized local power generating ability through alternative sources.

    >
    > And reduction of demand. We're not far from the point at which more
    > cannot be delivered. We better start thinking about this.
    >
    > --
    > hank alrich * secret mountain
    > audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
    > "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"


    Yeah, but this does not show up in price at all. Until
    we get it in the wallet, there is no problem. And I'm
    still unsure if there really is one or not - it's too
    hot a potato to get good stats about.

    --
    Les Cargill
  17. 0junk4me@bellsouth.net wrote:
    > Just try selling a little bit of excess capacity from your small wind
    > farm back to the grid. <hmmmm> I have a buddy back in Iowa where I
    > lived told me some horror stories 'bout that one.


    I really should know better by now...

    there are two sides to every coin... co-generation, the name commonly
    applied to folks trying to sell a little energy back to the grid suffers
    from one glaring problem... these small providers are not required to be
    on-line, they aren't even required to let the utility know when they are
    going off-line (at least that's how it works in PA.)

    So utilities try to weed out the lunatics early on in the process, since
    the further along one gets in the process the harder it is to stop. And
    their methods probably wouldn't make the average person happy.

    But it has to be this way because the loss of generation, even from a
    small wind farm or hydro plant can cause disturbances in the grid. You'd
    be surprised at just how little it takes to shift from stable to
    unstable operation, especially under high load conditions. It doesn't
    take much.

    We had a hospital that operated a steam generator of the laundry steam.
    I don't remember the exact capacity, but it didn't generate a whole lot
    of power, and they used most of what they generated. So when they
    dropped off line, which they did with some regularity, not only was
    there a loss of generation, but there was an increase in load.

    And you could see it on the meters in dispatch... every time.

    When the folks operating small generation sources agree to play under
    the same rules that the utilities have to play under I think arguments
    against co-generation will decrease.

    Bill
  18. LeBaron & Alrich wrote:

    > And reduction of demand. We're not far from the point at which more
    > cannot be delivered. We better start thinking about this.


    Well, we have to do something... either increase supply, decrease
    demand, or accept the consequences of burying our heads in the sand.

    Sadly there are a lot of folks out claiming there is no problem other
    than the greedy capitalists trying to wring every last cent from the system.

    When power generation was regulated there weren't a lot of folks trying
    to wring anything out of it... the stocks were generally considered safe
    for widows and orphans!

    And, if additional generation was required to meet demand the utility
    was required to find a way to meet that demand. Now that the generators
    are no longer regulated they don't have to build a plant until they know
    it will make a profit, and a big one at that!

    Meanwhile, the utilities still have tariffs defining how they will
    deliver power to homes and businesses in a safe and cost effective manner.

    Go figure...
  19. Dale Farmer wrote:

    > Well, the most recent ongoing example of NIMBY eco-luddites up here
    > around Boston is the opposition to the wind farm offshore of Martha's
    > Vineyard. Totally clean power, Built on a barely submerged hazard to
    > navigation several miles away from the island. The real reason is that
    > the folks on the island feel that the towers will spoil their view, and since
    > they have money, lawyers, and the liberal left, they are trotting out all
    > the usual eco-luddite mantras, slightly snipped and molded to fit this
    > particular situation. *feh*


    I hadn't heard that tale... sheesh!

    > For an older local example, the Seabrook, NH power plant. Direct
    > legal costs added up to something like 15% of the total plant cost. Indirect
    > costs, basically rebuilding things to meet the latest court order, and the
    > costs of stopping and starting construction dozens of times made the plant
    > construction cost more than double.


    That one however is in the textbooks... along with most nuclear plants
    built towards the end of the era.

    > Most of these people mean well, and have a surface understanding of
    > some of the issues, but their understanding is systematically been
    > propagandized by extremists. Scientific thought and logical thinking get
    > replaced by sound bites and articles of faith that are never questioned by
    > the faithful. ANyone who questions these base beliefs is labeled an
    > "industry shill" and driven away by the horde with fingers in their ears
    > chanting their slogans. Joe Stalin had a name for these kinds of folks.
    > He called them useful idiots.


    A very balanced observation... doesn't really belong in a thread about
    public policy and energy now does it<G>???

    Bill
  20. Dale Farmer

    Dale Farmer Guest

    Bill Thompson wrote:

    > Dale Farmer wrote:
    >
    > > Well, the most recent ongoing example of NIMBY eco-luddites up here
    > > around Boston is the opposition to the wind farm offshore of Martha's
    > > Vineyard. Totally clean power, Built on a barely submerged hazard to
    > > navigation several miles away from the island. The real reason is that
    > > the folks on the island feel that the towers will spoil their view, and since
    > > they have money, lawyers, and the liberal left, they are trotting out all
    > > the usual eco-luddite mantras, slightly snipped and molded to fit this
    > > particular situation. *feh*

    >
    > I hadn't heard that tale... sheesh!
    >
    > > For an older local example, the Seabrook, NH power plant. Direct
    > > legal costs added up to something like 15% of the total plant cost. Indirect
    > > costs, basically rebuilding things to meet the latest court order, and the
    > > costs of stopping and starting construction dozens of times made the plant
    > > construction cost more than double.

    >
    > That one however is in the textbooks... along with most nuclear plants
    > built towards the end of the era.
    >
    > > Most of these people mean well, and have a surface understanding of
    > > some of the issues, but their understanding is systematically been
    > > propagandized by extremists. Scientific thought and logical thinking get
    > > replaced by sound bites and articles of faith that are never questioned by
    > > the faithful. ANyone who questions these base beliefs is labeled an
    > > "industry shill" and driven away by the horde with fingers in their ears
    > > chanting their slogans. Joe Stalin had a name for these kinds of folks.
    > > He called them useful idiots.

    >
    > A very balanced observation... doesn't really belong in a thread about
    > public policy and energy now does it<G>???
    >
    > Bill


    Especially on rec.audio.pro. *laughs*
    Rule one of having clean power in your studio. Have power in the power
    system feeding your building.

    --Dale

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