Power outage

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by Don Cooper, Aug 14, 2003.

  1. Rob Adelman

    Rob Adelman Guest

    I think Bustamante's "vote no on the recall, but yes for me just in
    case" was a very smart move and seems to be working, at least at the moment:


    "Results of the Field Poll released on Saturday showed Bustamante
    leading Republican actor-turned-politician Arnold Schwarzenegger by
    three percentage points, though the gap was within the poll's margin of
    error.

    Steve Westly, who became a multimillionaire as a senior executive of
    online auctioneer eBay Inc. and was elected California's controller last
    November, this weekend endorsed Bustamante in the recall.

    Westly adopted Bustamante's tactic of urging Californians to vote "no"
    on the question of recalling Davis but "yes" to Bustamante as his
    successor should the recall pass."

    <http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...817/ts_nm/politics_california_dc&e=3&ncid=578>



    Roger W. Norman wrote:
    > Can we make that TVless night when Arnold's giving a speech for the next
    > couple of months? <g>
    >
  2. dmills@spamblock.demon.co.uk wrote:
    >
    > These small local machines will
    > most likely have poor speed regulation and there is no one single point
    > to throttle in order to achive phase sync. Granted with enough grid
    > capacity available you can just close the switches but the owners of the
    > small local plants will not much like that (think *huge* current until
    > everything is spinning in sync)....
    > The only way I can see to work this trick would be to drop all the local
    > generators off line, then bring the grid feed up, then bring the local
    > plant back on line once the grid was providing a stiff phase reference.
    >
    > This is probably relativly easy where the generators feed a network with
    > well controlled connectivity to the local low voltage user network, as a
    > plant can be taken off line without anyone noticing. But where a area is
    > running on small local plants connected directly to the local LV network
    > due to a fault isolating it from the grid I can see some political problems
    > with the grid operators insisting that all these plants be taken off line
    > (causing a total power failiure) before the area can be reconnected to the
    > grid proper. You would ALWAYS get some wanker who "was only trying to help"
    > leaving his 100KVA@61.5Hz on line, then wondering why he has ended up with a
    > flywheel embedded in the wall.
    >
    > Sync and control of multiple small plants (and particularly their recovery
    > after system failiure) seems likely to be a hard problem.


    Modern inverters don't have these issues. They sync to the grid
    automagically and are non-islanding (compliant with IEEE929 which was
    rolled into UL1741.) All solar and fuel cell generators require an
    inverter and many modern wind and gas turbine setups also use them.
  3. ryanm wrote:
    > "Justin Ulysses Morse" <ulysses@rollmusic.com> wrote in message
    > news:160820031515510053%ulysses@rollmusic.com...
    >
    >> Wouldn't it make more sense to encourage a much larger number of
    >> co-generators so that their individual starts and stops would be
    >> averaged out by all the others? With enough small generators, we
    >> wouldn't BE running close to capacity all the time and if those
    >> generators were distributed with the population it would solve a lot of
    >> our transmission difficulties and inefficiencies at the same time.
    >> This doesn'y happen with a few dozen co-generators, but it could happen
    >> with a few THOUSAND co-generators in any given area. Am I wrong?

    >
    >
    > Doesn't solve the basic problem. If those co-generators were all solar
    > powered, then at dawn everyone's generation would surge and the load would
    > drop, and the opposite would happen at dusk. Same with windmills, when the
    > wind picks up, everyone in the area is generating, when it dies down, the
    > generation drops out and the load surges.


    The solar case is interesting precisely for this reason--as the sun gets
    brighter, electrical loads tend to increase.




    > Now, if some kind of highly efficient storage device were invented it
    > could alleviate the problem. During peak generation times the power goes to
    > the "battery" which feeds the power back into the grid at a steady pace.
    > During the lowest generation periods, the batteries could still feed a
    > steady stream of power back into the grid, with ample warning before the
    > battery runs dry so that the power providers can manage the load changes. Or
    > something like that.


    Ever tried feeding AC into a battery? You'd need an inverter and a
    rectifier (charger) for batteries or fuel cells. There are mechanical
    (flywheel) surge smoothers but they don't store long duration power.

    Now if you're running a DC transmission line, all you need is a battery
    string matched to the line voltage and it just floats across the line
    (like the telephone company has been doing for nearly a century.)
  4. ryanm

    ryanm Guest

    "Kurt Albershardt" <kurt@nv.net> wrote in message
    news:1061170258.889136@nnrp1.phx1.gblx.net...
    >
    > Ever tried feeding AC into a battery? You'd need an inverter and a
    > rectifier (charger) for batteries or fuel cells. There are mechanical
    > (flywheel) surge smoothers but they don't store long duration power.
    >
    > Now if you're running a DC transmission line, all you need is a battery
    > string matched to the line voltage and it just floats across the line
    > (like the telephone company has been doing for nearly a century.)
    >

    Well, I'm not claiming to be smart enough to figure out the details, I
    just know enough to know that some kind of buffer would be absolutely
    necessary for a scenario like the one mentioned to work. From what I
    understand of it, though (and keep in mind that I have a nice red wine buzz
    going right now), the existing batteries and inverters required to convert
    to DC, store, and then convert to AC and push back out to the power grid are
    inefficient enough to not be worth the trouble. More energy is lost as heat
    than would be transferred to the power grid and you would be better off
    simply storing the power and using it in your own house. And forget about
    trying to cool the room with all the equipment in it (we don't have
    basements in Texas).

    I did look at adding solar cells to my house about a year ago, but the
    $10k-$20k price tag dissuaded me. I know someone who does this in Kansas and
    receives something like a $20-$30 check from the power company every month
    for the power he's putting back into the grid, but here in Texas I found
    that it would take me 10-15 years to actually see any return on my
    investment, let alone ever actually get any money back from the power
    company. I don't plan to be in this house that long, so I'll consider it
    again when I build my next house.

    ryanm
  5. One could see some reasonable return within cities by using windmills.
    After all, it's a microcosm that generates it's own wind.

    And just a little note here. Deregulation started with Bush41, was
    executive ordered back into being by Clinton, and then deregulated again by
    Bush43 within the first two weeks of being in office. Remember, executive
    orders don't have to be made public, so no one heard of it. Except maybe
    Ken Lay and Bush's other energy consortium buddies.

    FDR started regulation of the utilities in order to stop the Power Pirates
    from robbing American's blind. Bush's history lessons don't seem to go back
    that far.

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "nmm" <vohhxman@arvotek.net> wrote in message
    news:BB641C65-D1375@64.56.247.87...
    > On Sat, Aug 16, 2003 2:19 pm, LeBaron & Alrich
    > <mailto:walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote:
    > >nmm <voximan@arvotek.net> wrote:
    > >
    > >> The system seemed to work fine when it was a public utility. Now that

    > >there
    > >> are private consortiums running Ontario Power Generation, all we hear

    > >about
    > >> are problems.

    > >
    > >Indeed, but since that time population has expanded significantly and
    > >we're consuming a whole lot more juice. The thing about the regulated
    > >situation is that supply concerns get addressed as if they were
    > >necessities, instead of peripheral ameneties the provision for which
    > >stands on whether those greedy capitalists get earn their money drug.
    > >
    > >Whooops, I wound up right back where you started. <g>

    >
    > There are no incentives to conserve power. IF it's there, it gets used. If
    > you have the money the prvate utility will take that money from you. More
    > the better.
    >
    > And back to my favourite author. In "A Critical Path" Buckminster Fuller
    > mention plans for a worldwide power grid, and that more smaller generators
    > could be a more efficient supply of electricity. A small windmill on every
    > second utility pole could supply up to 65% of the electrical needs of a
    > large city.
    >
    > Why this won't happen? Because of the industry mindset. Something
    > established by George Westinghouse and Thomas Edison way back.
    >
    > What about the "transmision of electricity through natural media"? Those
    > plans were long ago sealed or destryed.
    >
    >
  6. I've been mentioning becoming power self-sufficient for a long time here.
    When one has to redo the shingles on their roof, which can easily be a $4k
    to $25k cost depending on the size of the job and the materials used, it
    would behoove anyone with a clear shot to a south facing surface to use
    photovoltaic shingles and generate electricity. These things look like
    regular shingles. And as unsightly as it might be, people with a little
    more wide open space might just consider putting up a bank of solar panels,
    again, with photovoltaic cells, and store themselves some electricity. And
    as much as the little replacement flourescent lights do a good job of using
    less electricity, switching over to runs of low voltage 12V lights would go
    a much further way of lessening the power drain. Hell, even lightboxes with
    fiber strands can do a good job of lighting work areas in kitchens and such
    for the price of operation of one lightbulb. As you need it water heaters
    could cut down on consumption too, although now I'm lumping in the cost of
    gas in lieu of electricity, but every time one cuts down on dependency on
    utilities such as electrical and gas, we're cutting back on demand, and
    ultimately still being able to maintain our normal way of day to day life.

    So if it's time for us to step into the fray then I'd suggest that we call
    our representatives in Congress and get them to push through a law that
    allows people who invest in being independent from the utilities be given
    BIG tax incentives to do so. That would include geothermal heating/cooling,
    methods of controlled lighting so that one's work area is lit, not the
    entire room, not heating up water in holding tanks that require continued
    heating until you use it, also requiring running a few gallons or more to
    "get the heat up", thereby wasting less water and putting a smaller drain on
    our sewage systems.

    The technology is available, and with tax credits, such as those enjoyed by
    people who purchase hybrid or alternative fuel cars, these improvements and
    moves towards self-sufficiency would be affordable. I'm not saying cheap,
    but if you've got power stored when everybody else's lights go out,
    apparently the party is going to be at your house.

    For some small reference http://www.eere.energy.gov/power/success_stories/.
    And to think, not too long ago wasn't some Republican trying to shut the
    Department of Energy down? With all the pushing of new technologies and
    alternative fuels, it's not that surprising. Most of what's in this website
    are most certainly commercially viable, but there's some information on the
    technologies that apply to housing.

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "Justin Ulysses Morse" <ulysses@rollmusic.com> wrote in message
    news:160820031530041350%ulysses@rollmusic.com...
    > I think it's time for us (people) to start looking at how we can solve
    > the problem for ourselves rather than trying to get industry to
    > regulate itself, or worse yet get government to do it. I can think of
    > all sorts of ways I can reduce my consumption of electricity, and I can
    > also think of plenty of ways to get the electricity I do use from
    > someplace other than "The Grid." I think I've changed my mind about
    > leaving the studio equipment on all the time. This is as good a reason
    > as anything else. I've gotten a lot better about shutting down my
    > computer when I'm not using it, too. I've done the math and now I know
    > how much cheaper it is to use those small fluorescents as a replacement
    > for incandescent bulbs. They're NOT noisy OR ugly. The only catch is
    > the extra junk you throw in the trash when they burn out. But they
    > last a year instead of a month. There have been some HUGE advancements
    > in efficiency in recent years, including lighting, batteries,
    > computers, displays (TFTs use WAY less power than CRTs), refrigeration,
    > etc. We should be able to decrease rather than increase our
    > consumption, if we actually make an effort.
    >
    > What's I'd LIKE to see is people using their treadmills and excercise
    > bikes and Nordik-Traks to charge their laptops or even run their
    > refrigerators. I'd like to see a gigantic flywheel in everybody's
    > garage that would stor energy from every available source: Wind,
    > solar, childrens' hyperactivity, wind-up cranks, weights on chains
    > (like a big cuckoo clock) etc. I bet that with the right equipment,
    > the average home could be powered by the family living in it. This
    > sort of thing would be easy to phase in incrementally because you can
    > always use a little mains power on the side.
    >
    > Of course, it's 97 degrees outside and I do have the AC cranked up
    > today.
    >
    > ulysses
    >
    >
    > Rob Adelman <radelman@mn.rr.com> wrote:
    >
    > > LeBaron & Alrich wrote:
    > >
    > > >>More cluelessness blaming the environmentally aware. The truth is that

    the
    > > >>"eco-luddites" have maintained all along that the cure for this is

    small
    > > >>decentralized local power generating ability through alternative

    sources.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > And reduction of demand. We're not far from the point at which more
    > > > cannot be delivered. We better start thinking about this.

    > >
    > > My brother's solar powered house in Poway with his electric car is
    > > looking a little smarter these days. He is probably laughing about all
    > > this.
    > >
    > > The oil companies bought the patents for the batteries for the electric
    > > cars. You know they stopped making the electric cars?
    > >
    > > I wonder if Arnoold thinks much about this as he is riding high up in
    > > his SUV?
    > >
  7. Yep and blame GW for killing Clinton's executive order that re-established
    regulation of the power industry and specifically forbade Enron from dealing
    in California any more. Hell, Bush's new chair wasn't even warmed up
    properly before he recinded that executive order. And blame GW's daddy for
    deregulating in the first place.

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "ScotFraser" <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:20030817121105.23011.00000159@mb-m05.aol.com...
    > << I think it's time for us (people) to start looking at how we can solve
    > the problem for ourselves rather than trying to get industry to
    > regulate itself, or worse yet get government to do it. >>
    >
    > Actually government did a very good job of regulating power. That's why

    the
    > industry has poured hundreds of millions into initiative measures to get

    states
    > to deregulate, so they can help themselves to your wallet, which is

    impossible
    > with government oversight.
    >
    >
    > Scott Fraser
  8. It's all strategy and means naught. Gray Davis can't campaign because he's
    not on the election ballot. That's a major strike against him because they
    can't use donations. I think the court screwed up there. He should be able
    to be on the ballot. Then it would be possible to recall him and elect him
    again at the same time. Now he needs to fight to not be recalled and
    continue to act like a governor. Fighting against Arnold just doesn't
    really play into this because, again, Gray Davis can't use donations to run
    against Arnold.

    And the stupidest thing is that there's another election rather than Davis
    being recalled and his Lieutenant Governor should then become the Governor
    and appoint his successor with the approval of the two California houses,
    like any other local, state and federal government we have does.

    I mean, just look at the logistics and technical planning it takes to have a
    change in government. You usually have about a three month turnover, where
    the incoming have access to all acts of state, etc., and can start working
    their transition team into place. So it will take whomever, except maybe
    Bustmante's team at least three months to get everything in place before the
    business of government can continue.

    I don't know who actually worded this piece of crap, but they ought to go
    back to law school. This is non-functional government by design. By this
    design the Chinese could immigrate and establish residency, establish a
    recall, run their own popular candidate and move right into running the 5th
    largest economy of the union. Might take them ten or twenty years, but
    that's nothing in terms of Nations and planning.

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "Rob Adelman" <radelman@mn.rr.com> wrote in message
    news:N8U%a.93375$7O4.2283829@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
    > I think Bustamante's "vote no on the recall, but yes for me just in
    > case" was a very smart move and seems to be working, at least at the

    moment:
    >
    >
    > "Results of the Field Poll released on Saturday showed Bustamante
    > leading Republican actor-turned-politician Arnold Schwarzenegger by
    > three percentage points, though the gap was within the poll's margin of
    > error.
    >
    > Steve Westly, who became a multimillionaire as a senior executive of
    > online auctioneer eBay Inc. and was elected California's controller last
    > November, this weekend endorsed Bustamante in the recall.
    >
    > Westly adopted Bustamante's tactic of urging Californians to vote "no"
    > on the question of recalling Davis but "yes" to Bustamante as his
    > successor should the recall pass."
    >
    >

    <http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/nm/20030817/ts_nm/politics_
    california_dc&e=3&ncid=578>
    >
    >
    >
    > Roger W. Norman wrote:
    > > Can we make that TVless night when Arnold's giving a speech for the next
    > > couple of months? <g>
    > >

    >
  9. Justin Ulysses Morse wrote:
    > Wouldn't it make more sense to encourage a much larger number of
    > co-generators so that their individual starts and stops would be
    > averaged out by all the others? With enough small generators, we
    > wouldn't BE running close to capacity all the time and if those
    > generators were distributed with the population it would solve a lot of
    > our transmission difficulties and inefficiencies at the same time.
    > This doesn'y happen with a few dozen co-generators, but it could happen
    > with a few THOUSAND co-generators in any given area. Am I wrong?


    Wrong is too strong a word... but there are a few practical issues that
    you sort of skipped over.

    First and formost is safety. The rules that the utilities use to operate
    their grids are not there for grins... people start switching generation
    and load in and out and people can get killed.

    Second is network stability. People start switching generation and load
    in and out and the network can become unstable.

    The idea of thousands of small generation plants is not new, and it has
    been investigated, primarilly as a way to reduce the stability issues
    associated with just a few small plants.

    But it is really tricky while going from just a few plants to enough
    plants that any one of them can't cause problems. And at least when I
    worked there, the curve actually got worse as you approached enough
    plants. Wierd!

    Then there is the problem that some folks simply don't want a plant of
    any size anywhere near their precious mcmansion.

    The power grid is a really fascinating system to study, even without the
    financial consideration. When you add those in it becomes really
    complex. Each company is tasked with bringing on their least expensive
    generation source, until the demand is covered, with a little extra
    capacity to provide a margin of error. In some areas, like the PJM
    interconnect, there is a separate group responsible for managing this
    puzzle, in other areas it's up to the individual utility.

    This worked really well when public utilities owned both generation and
    transmission, but it becomes a little more difficult when the generation
    is removed from the regulated environment.

    When you add a bunch of smaller plants that are all privately owned, it
    really gets difficult. Most co-gen owners do not want to be beholden to
    anyone, especially a governing body that will tell them when they can
    and can not connect to the grid.

    This is not a simple problem, and while I have great respect and trust
    in an open market, I believe that there are some things that just have
    to be regulated for the public good. This of course opens up the whole
    slippery slope thing, and now that we've deregulated power I agree that
    it will be that much more difficult to go back... but you know, it
    really wasn't broken, and it is a shame that a few shortsighted folks
    felt the need to "fix" it, whether the driving force behind the fix was
    political, philosophical, or just plain greed.

    Bill
  10. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net> wrote:
    >dmills@spamblock.demon.co.uk wrote:
    >> with the grid operators insisting that all these plants be taken off line
    >> (causing a total power failiure) before the area can be reconnected to the
    >> grid proper. You would ALWAYS get some wanker who "was only trying to help"
    >> leaving his 100KVA@61.5Hz on line, then wondering why he has ended up with a
    >> flywheel embedded in the wall.
    >>
    >> Sync and control of multiple small plants (and particularly their recovery
    >> after system failiure) seems likely to be a hard problem.

    >
    >Modern inverters don't have these issues. They sync to the grid
    >automagically and are non-islanding (compliant with IEEE929 which was
    >rolled into UL1741.) All solar and fuel cell generators require an
    >inverter and many modern wind and gas turbine setups also use them.


    How good are the output waveforms? I know that one of the big things the
    utilities get pissed off at cogeneration facilities are about is when they
    backhaul harmonics onto the power line.

    I have seen some small generators and inverters with really nasty waveforms,
    and I have seen some with pretty good waveforms too. Surprisingly enough,
    the old GE/Studebaker Cyclone was one of the cleaner ones even though the
    frequency regulation was next to nonexistent.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  11. ScotFraser

    ScotFraser Guest

    << I don't know who actually worded this piece of crap, but they ought to go
    back to law school. This is non-functional government by design. >>

    It's called mob rule, & until the Republicans foisted it on us with this
    attempt to buy an election they already lost, both sides previously had the
    good sense to avoid going there.

    Scott Fraser
  12. ScotFraser

    ScotFraser Guest

    << I hope Californians can put 2 and 2 together in time. The future is
    looking pretty bleak.
    >>


    That would require critical thinking, & the fact that we've come to this point
    leads one to conclude that the electorate has shit for brains.

    Scott Fraser
  13. ScotFraser

    ScotFraser Guest

    << Mostly because pumping vast amounts of RF into the atmosphere would not only
    make for very inefficient transmission, but it would also make communication
    by radio totally impractical.
    >>


    But wasn't he also messing with using earth as a hot conductor for power?


    Scott Fraser
  14. ScotFraser

    ScotFraser Guest

    << A DC line carries full voltage
    all the time, so you can get 40% more power through the same line. >>

    Doesn't resistance cause an enormous waste over any kind of distance typical in
    North America?


    Scott Fraser
  15. Ohio is saying they didn't fail. Canada wants an apology for pointing the
    finger at them first, and so far nobody really has a clue as to what caused
    the problem. Ah, but it can't be terrorists, now can it.

    I always thought that deductive logic required that all possibilities be on
    the table until you can use facts to remove them. Since the only fact they
    know is we had a major power outage and they have no cause, then they have
    no reason to disclude a terrorist act, either outright in a physical sense,
    or via some well trained computer geek terrorist. China has them, why
    shouldn't we think Al Qaeda doesn't?

    Now I'm not saying that they did do this, but without proof to the contrary,
    as far as I'm concerned it's still on the table. Just like the crash of
    flight 597 into Queens, which hardly even hit the ground before it was
    declared an accident, not a terrorist act (nor have we heard a follow up
    finding from the investigation yet, nor are we ever likely to hear one). Or
    Flight 800, which has extensive proof behind it that supports it WAS a
    terrorist act and yet two weird things happened. First, the instant claim
    it wasn't a terrorist act, but secondly, the investigation being run by the
    FBI, not the NTSB as all other plane accidents have been.

    This is the problem of an administration that uses misinformation and
    outright lies to promote it's agenda and maintain secrecy. We can no longer
    trust what they say. This event now makes knowing what went on behind
    closed doors at the White House with the secret Energy Consortium even more
    imperative. Could this have been a "blackout blackmail"?

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "zip by" <kilgore@trout.com> wrote in message
    news:170820031647019588%kilgore@trout.com...
    > In article <20030817121105.23011.00000159@mb-m05.aol.com>, ScotFraser
    > <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote:
    >
    > > Actually government did a very good job of regulating power. That's why

    the
    > > industry has poured hundreds of millions into initiative measures to get
    > > states
    > > to deregulate, so they can help themselves to your wallet, which is

    impossible
    > > with government oversight.

    >
    > amen
    >
    > It will be most interesting to see who "owned" those facilities in Ohio
    > that failed.....
  16. You know, bad laws can be repealed! <g> I'd suggest any Californian who
    wants to eliminate this from happening again simply bring forth an
    initiative to rescind the law. Put in the impeachment process if necessary,
    but do not remand the control of the government to a mob, or the highest
    bidder or the prettiest face or best known name. That's how we had
    lynchings for all those years. And essentially, this is a political
    lynching by the Republican party. Overall, I still don't see how it's going
    to help them in the future, but you can believe that it's in their plans and
    has some reason. They've become quite good at looking at plans for the long
    term, going 20 or more years into the future. Shit, the Iraq thing has been
    on the neocon's list since Reagan and that's one reason Bush41 didn't get
    re-elected. The Republicans didn't give him anywhere near the support GW
    got before he even became an candidate.

    Maybe I was wrong. Looks like GW might have picked up much more in those
    smoke-filled backroom sessions than I'd originally given him credit for.
    Maybe it was actually Daddy that was the dullard all along.

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "ScotFraser" <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:20030818120503.10819.00000150@mb-m14.aol.com...
    > << I don't know who actually worded this piece of crap, but they ought to

    go
    > back to law school. This is non-functional government by design. >>
    >
    > It's called mob rule, & until the Republicans foisted it on us with this
    > attempt to buy an election they already lost, both sides previously had

    the
    > good sense to avoid going there.
    >
    > Scott Fraser
  17. nmm

    nmm Guest

    On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 11:31 am, Roger W. Norman
    <mailto:rnorman@starpower.net> wrote:
    >Ohio is saying they didn't fail. Canada wants an apology for

    pointing the
    >finger at them first, and so far nobody really has a clue as to what

    caused
    >the problem. Ah, but it can't be terrorists, now can it.


    After hearing that the terrorists have been trying to hack into the
    grid for the last four years, I lean towards that .. but here is
    another opinion from the Rense site about the reasons:

    Sherman Skolnick <skolnick@ameritech.net> wrote:


    THE MIDDLE-FINGER NEWS
    Sticking It to the Poobahs
    News Hot Enough to Fry Eggs
    by Sherman H. Skolnick and Lenny Bloom
    www.skolnicksreport.com/www.cloakanddagger.ca
    <http://www.skolnicksreport.com/www.cloakanddagger.ca>
    8/15/3

    SAUDI BLACK-OUT MONEY

    Daddy Bush had a falling out with private business partner, Saddam
    Hussein. and the rest is called Persian Gulf War One. The Bush Crime
    Family is having a divorce from the Saudi Royals, and it is called the
    Great Black-Out of 2003.

    With the true nature unraveling of the U.S./British high-level crazies
    having created the monstrous disaster called
    9-11, the Saudis are not standing still while the Bushies and the
    Carlyle Group blame it on supposed "terrorist" hi-jackers financed by
    the Saudis. Part of an espionage/political assassination-type trick,
    called The Parallel Track, the Arabs now realize they were all the
    latter-day "Lee Harvey Oswalds", purely patsies.

    What to do? Simple. The Saudis, until now paid for their oil treasure
    in "U.S. Dollars", have on deposit in U.S. money center =CAbanks,
    mainly New York, more than One Trillion Dollars. The largest such,
    Citibank New York, has as its heaviest shareholder, with the
    Rockefellers, a top-member of the Saudi royals.

    The U.S. Treasury got wind of the Saudi plan for Thursday, August 14,
    2003, to begin the wire-transferring of 98 Billion Dollars. The
    recipients? Why, French banks and other enterprises in Quebec and
    through Toronto, Canada. In greater part, that is, the French
    Rothschilds, official bankers of the Vatican.

    Shortly after noon of U.S. Financial Doomsday, the U.S. Treasury
    ordered their unit, Internal Revenue Service, Manhattan, to
    immediately revert to back-up power. This according to a wire service
    story used once and later, dropped down the Orwell =CA"1984" media
    hole. Three hours later, began the greatest U.S./Canadian black-out,
    blamed by the U.S. monopoly press on the Canadian side of Niagara
    power. The Canadians immediately rejected the fake U.S. explanation of
    a "lightning" strike. That the treacherous Brits, and the Queen of
    England, having recently bought into a key portion of the U.S. grid,
    and tied to the Bushies, remains generally unknown.

    So in a State of Emergency, by a created mess, the Saudi money escape,
    for now, has been blocked.

    Just earlier than the U.S. Treasury command, the Financial Times of
    London, showed how Federal Reserve Commissar, Alan Greenspan, is
    trapped in a U.S. Bond Collapse, causing interest rates to spike,
    (according to some, perhaps worse than 21-1/2 per cent, for the most
    solvent creditors, =CAas in 1981).

    Now what? Perhaps a new fabricated crisis. Such as, a strange ship
    entering New York Harbor with "nuclear terrorists". =CAOr, maybe
    thirty nuclear suitcase bombs (code-named "Red Mercury") known to be
    located in or near Manhattan. The problem? Simple. Stop the Saudis.
    The oil-soaked, spy-riddled pro-British American monopoly press can
    hollar that the Saudi royals are secretly financing the Iraqi
    underground killing our troops.

    The solution? By U.S. Military force, divide up Saudi Arabia. The
    non-oil western part with the two religious sites, to house the
    Royals. The eastern part, seized for oil for the U.S. and such.

    Can there be any question that the U.S. Treasury had prior knowledge
    of the Great Black-Out of 2003? Does the Treasury intend to finger the
    Vatican plan to seize Jerusalem as their capital? Or admit the Saudi
    attempted money escape? Or admit that the Bush Crime Family should be
    arrested for treason against the American people?

    [NOTE: stories like this are posted and archived through MAIN PAGE,
    left-hand side of Page, COLUMNISTS Sherman Skolnick of www.rense.com
    <http://www.rense.com/>=CAOften posted there sooner than
    www.skolnicksreport.com <http://www.skolnicksreport.com/>

    To hear live, or later hear from archives, of two-hour weekly program
    "Talk Radio for Spies", click on www.cloakanddagger.ca
    <http://www.cloakanddagger.ca/>=CAProgram is on each Thursday evening,
    11 p.m. Eastern Time, 10 p.m. Central, 9 p.m. Mountain, 8 p.m.
    Pacific. Documents are often attached as links to upcoming programs on
    "Cloak And Dagger".]
  18. Arny Krueger

    Arny Krueger Guest

    "nmm" <vohhxman@arvotek.net> wrote in message
    news:BB641C65-D1375@64.56.247.87

    > And back to my favourite author. In "A Critical Path" Buckminster
    > Fuller mention plans for a worldwide power grid, and that more
    > smaller generators could be a more efficient supply of electricity. A
    > small windmill on every second utility pole could supply up to 65% of
    > the electrical needs of a large city.


    > Why this won't happen?


    Windless or nearly still days, which abound in many cities.

    Anybody know of a solar cell that generates more energy over a reasonable
    life span than it takes to make?

    ....especially in the great lakes states where at least partly cloudy days
    abound.
  19. Shit, you need to read more of my political posts! <g>

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "nmm" <voximan@arvotek.net> wrote in message
    news:BB668066-164857@64.56.247.252...
    On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 11:31 am, Roger W. Norman
    <mailto:rnorman@starpower.net> wrote:
    >Ohio is saying they didn't fail. Canada wants an apology for

    pointing the
    >finger at them first, and so far nobody really has a clue as to what

    caused
    >the problem. Ah, but it can't be terrorists, now can it.


    After hearing that the terrorists have been trying to hack into the
    grid for the last four years, I lean towards that .. but here is
    another opinion from the Rense site about the reasons:

    Sherman Skolnick <skolnick@ameritech.net> wrote:


    THE MIDDLE-FINGER NEWS
    Sticking It to the Poobahs
    News Hot Enough to Fry Eggs
    by Sherman H. Skolnick and Lenny Bloom
    www.skolnicksreport.com/www.cloakanddagger.ca
    <http://www.skolnicksreport.com/www.cloakanddagger.ca>
    8/15/3

    SAUDI BLACK-OUT MONEY

    Daddy Bush had a falling out with private business partner, Saddam
    Hussein. and the rest is called Persian Gulf War One. The Bush Crime
    Family is having a divorce from the Saudi Royals, and it is called the
    Great Black-Out of 2003.

    With the true nature unraveling of the U.S./British high-level crazies
    having created the monstrous disaster called
    9-11, the Saudis are not standing still while the Bushies and the
    Carlyle Group blame it on supposed "terrorist" hi-jackers financed by
    the Saudis. Part of an espionage/political assassination-type trick,
    called The Parallel Track, the Arabs now realize they were all the
    latter-day "Lee Harvey Oswalds", purely patsies.

    What to do? Simple. The Saudis, until now paid for their oil treasure
    in "U.S. Dollars", have on deposit in U.S. money center Êbanks,
    mainly New York, more than One Trillion Dollars. The largest such,
    Citibank New York, has as its heaviest shareholder, with the
    Rockefellers, a top-member of the Saudi royals.

    The U.S. Treasury got wind of the Saudi plan for Thursday, August 14,
    2003, to begin the wire-transferring of 98 Billion Dollars. The
    recipients? Why, French banks and other enterprises in Quebec and
    through Toronto, Canada. In greater part, that is, the French
    Rothschilds, official bankers of the Vatican.

    Shortly after noon of U.S. Financial Doomsday, the U.S. Treasury
    ordered their unit, Internal Revenue Service, Manhattan, to
    immediately revert to back-up power. This according to a wire service
    story used once and later, dropped down the Orwell Ê"1984" media
    hole. Three hours later, began the greatest U.S./Canadian black-out,
    blamed by the U.S. monopoly press on the Canadian side of Niagara
    power. The Canadians immediately rejected the fake U.S. explanation of
    a "lightning" strike. That the treacherous Brits, and the Queen of
    England, having recently bought into a key portion of the U.S. grid,
    and tied to the Bushies, remains generally unknown.

    So in a State of Emergency, by a created mess, the Saudi money escape,
    for now, has been blocked.

    Just earlier than the U.S. Treasury command, the Financial Times of
    London, showed how Federal Reserve Commissar, Alan Greenspan, is
    trapped in a U.S. Bond Collapse, causing interest rates to spike,
    (according to some, perhaps worse than 21-1/2 per cent, for the most
    solvent creditors, Êas in 1981).

    Now what? Perhaps a new fabricated crisis. Such as, a strange ship
    entering New York Harbor with "nuclear terrorists". ÊOr, maybe
    thirty nuclear suitcase bombs (code-named "Red Mercury") known to be
    located in or near Manhattan. The problem? Simple. Stop the Saudis.
    The oil-soaked, spy-riddled pro-British American monopoly press can
    hollar that the Saudi royals are secretly financing the Iraqi
    underground killing our troops.

    The solution? By U.S. Military force, divide up Saudi Arabia. The
    non-oil western part with the two religious sites, to house the
    Royals. The eastern part, seized for oil for the U.S. and such.

    Can there be any question that the U.S. Treasury had prior knowledge
    of the Great Black-Out of 2003? Does the Treasury intend to finger the
    Vatican plan to seize Jerusalem as their capital? Or admit the Saudi
    attempted money escape? Or admit that the Bush Crime Family should be
    arrested for treason against the American people?

    [NOTE: stories like this are posted and archived through MAIN PAGE,
    left-hand side of Page, COLUMNISTS Sherman Skolnick of www.rense.com
    <http://www.rense.com/>ÊOften posted there sooner than
    www.skolnicksreport.com <http://www.skolnicksreport.com/>

    To hear live, or later hear from archives, of two-hour weekly program
    "Talk Radio for Spies", click on www.cloakanddagger.ca
    <http://www.cloakanddagger.ca/>ÊProgram is on each Thursday evening,
    11 p.m. Eastern Time, 10 p.m. Central, 9 p.m. Mountain, 8 p.m.
    Pacific. Documents are often attached as links to upcoming programs on
    "Cloak And Dagger".]
  20. Rob Adelman

    Rob Adelman Guest

    Roger W. Norman wrote:


    > Or Flight 800, which has extensive proof behind it that supports it WAS a
    > terrorist act and yet two weird things happened. First, the instant claim
    > it wasn't a terrorist act, but secondly, the investigation being run by the
    > FBI, not the NTSB as all other plane accidents have been.
    >
    > This is the problem of an administration that uses misinformation and
    > outright lies to promote it's agenda and maintain secrecy. We can no longer
    > trust what they say.


    Roger, not sure how you can pin this on the current administration when
    it happened right in the middle of Clinton's years. That being said,
    there is good information that could lead one to believe that it was in
    fact a missile that brought down flight 800.

    <http://www.twa800.com/index.htm>

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