Power outage

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by Don Cooper, Aug 14, 2003.

  1. Ben Bradley <ben_nospam_bradley@mindspring.com> wrote:

    > This looks like as good a place as any to drop in this link. Go
    > here and scroll down a few pages to the (politically loaded) subtitle
    > "REPUBLICANS HATE THE ENVIRONMENT":
    >
    > http://www.boortz.com/dec02-02.htm
    >
    > It's a few paragraphs of argument, but this is surely just one
    > example of how bumper-sticker sized governmental and political
    > concerns can keep a Good Thing from happening. It's a shame and scary
    > that such regulations are passed due to a near-total lack of technical
    > understanding.


    This website is a pretty good example of how a little bit of knowledge
    can turn you into a complete moron. Scroll down a bit further to his
    explanation of why tzx cuts for the wealthy are better than taxcuts for
    the poor, if you'd like to see a sparkling example of "common sense"
    that isn't.

    ulysses
  2. nmm

    nmm Guest

    On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 1:27 pm, Arny Krueger <mailto:arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:
    >"nmm" <vohhxman@arvotek.net> wrote in message
    >news:BB641C65-D1375@64.56.247.87
    >
    >> And back to my favourite author. In "A Critical Path" Buckminster
    >> Fuller mention plans for a worldwide power grid, and that more
    >> smaller generators could be a more efficient supply of electricity. A
    >> small windmill on every second utility pole could supply up to 65% of
    >> the electrical needs of a large city.

    >
    >> Why this won't happen?

    >
    >Windless or nearly still days, which abound in many cities.
    >
    >Anybody know of a solar cell that generates more energy over a reasonable
    >life span than it takes to make?
    >
    >....especially in the great lakes states where at least partly cloudy days
    >abound.
    >
    >

    I gotta laugh at my friends in "It doesn't rain here all the time"
    Vancouver. They installed those parking meters that have a solar panel, but
    the sun wasn't seen for close to 6 months and the city had to spend lots of
    money replacing all the batteries, because they were completely drained too
    many times.

    In most of the world though small windmills with batteries and inverters
    are a reasonable idea.

    The cable , and high speed internet didn't fail here. having built an AT&T
    cable headend, and seeing the DC/ Battery backup systems they have, I know
    why.
  3. nmm

    nmm Guest

    On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 1:37 pm, Roger W. Norman
    <mailto:rnorman@starpower.net> wrote:
    >Shit, you need to read more of my political posts! <g>
    >
    >--
    >


    I have an archaive of them </eg>


    I got some info from the far out conspiracy folks today that all the power
    was diverted to a major test of the HAARP system.
  4. Wouldn't the west coast have been the grid to be hit?

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "nmm" <voximan@arvotek.net> wrote in message
    news:BB66BFB4-204033@64.56.245.58...
    > On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 1:37 pm, Roger W. Norman
    > <mailto:rnorman@starpower.net> wrote:
    > >Shit, you need to read more of my political posts! <g>
    > >
    > >--
    > >

    >
    > I have an archaive of them </eg>
    >
    >
    > I got some info from the far out conspiracy folks today that all the power
    > was diverted to a major test of the HAARP system.
    >
    >
  5. Well, the point was secrecy in terrorist attacks moreso than that particular
    problem being Bush's. Moreso simply because it was related to the same type
    of handling on flight 597 that crashed into Queens. Seems everyone is
    willing to forget some of these things, but that's not part of being
    vigilante as far as I know.
    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net. See
    how far $20 really goes.




    "Rob Adelman" <radelman@mn.rr.com> wrote in message
    news:bhr8gk$2c1fp$1@ID-75267.news.uni-berlin.de...
    >
    >
    > Roger W. Norman wrote:
    >
    >
    > > Or Flight 800, which has extensive proof behind it that supports it WAS

    a
    > > terrorist act and yet two weird things happened. First, the instant

    claim
    > > it wasn't a terrorist act, but secondly, the investigation being run by

    the
    > > FBI, not the NTSB as all other plane accidents have been.
    > >
    > > This is the problem of an administration that uses misinformation and
    > > outright lies to promote it's agenda and maintain secrecy. We can no

    longer
    > > trust what they say.

    >
    > Roger, not sure how you can pin this on the current administration when
    > it happened right in the middle of Clinton's years. That being said,
    > there is good information that could lead one to believe that it was in
    > fact a missile that brought down flight 800.
    >
    > <http://www.twa800.com/index.htm>
    >
  6. nmm

    nmm Guest

    On Mon, Aug 18, 2003 7:31 pm, Roger W. Norman
    <mailto:rnorman@starpower.net> wrote:
    >Wouldn't the west coast have been the grid to be hit?
    >
    >--
    >


    Well the HAARP system is located in Alaska, so I'd say it would be the
    North, all of Canada.

    Maybe it was the EM pulse of HAARP that knocked everything out?

    What was the incident in 1919 in the Soviet Union that gets attributed to
    Wardenclyff?

    These theories are far fetched, even for me.
  7. Rob Adelman

    Rob Adelman Guest

    ScotFraser wrote:

    > << I hope Californians can put 2 and 2 together in time. The future is
    > looking pretty bleak.
    > >>

    >
    > That would require critical thinking, & the fact that we've come to this point
    > leads one to conclude that the electorate has shit for brains.


    Davis is not going down without a fight:

    <http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/08/19/recall.davis/index.html>
  8. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    In article <20030818121507.10819.00000152@mb-m14.aol.com>,
    ScotFraser <scotfraser@aol.com> wrote:
    ><< Mostly because pumping vast amounts of RF into the atmosphere would not only
    >make for very inefficient transmission, but it would also make communication
    >by radio totally impractical.
    > >>

    >
    >But wasn't he also messing with using earth as a hot conductor for power?


    Sure, but one conductor won't carry power. You need a return.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  9. On 15 Aug 2003 17:29:52 GMT, scotfraser@aol.com (ScotFraser) wrote:

    >They say the move away
    >from smaller independent local municipal-run utilities toward big conglomerate
    >for-profit energy providers has significantly weakened the robustness of the
    >infrastructure. Check out this morning's show for a better nuts & bolts
    >explanation.


    I live in Burbank, CA, and the city owns it's own power plants. As a
    result, we hardly felt a ripple or rate increase during the big
    California power shortage a few years back that is costing the
    governor his job today, after having made G.W..'s Texas buddies
    energy companies weathly beyond realistic expectations.

    Mark
  10. Kurt Albershardt <kurt@nv.net> wrote:

    > Modern inverters don't have these issues. They sync to the grid
    > automagically and are non-islanding (compliant with IEEE929 which was
    > rolled into UL1741.) All solar and fuel cell generators require an
    > inverter and many modern wind and gas turbine setups also use them.


    What happens when you hook multiple non islanding inverters together?
    It would seem that unless there is a difference between what the inverter
    outputs and what the grid supply does then given a sufficiently large
    number of these things they may keep each other on line?

    I guess I can see it for Gas turbine where the shaft speed is inherently
    high and a high frequency alternator will reduce size & weight, but I
    very much doubt that inverters will catch on for most conventional sub
    250KVA machines which are usaually spark ignition gas engines.

    Regards, Dan.
    --
    ** The email address *IS* valid, do NOT remove the spamblock
    And on the evening of the first day the lord said...........
    ..... LX 1, GO!; and there was light.
  11. On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:46:55 -0700, someone who calls themselves
    "Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote:

    >"Scott Dorsey" wrote ...
    >> It was much more of a battle between George Westinghouse and Edison.
    >> Guys like Tesla and Steinmetz were on the side, and at the time there
    >> were some real big issues with AC distribution that hadn't been figured
    >> out. It wasn't until the Heaviside Calculus was introduced around the
    >> turn of the century that anyone even got a notion of what harmonic

    >distortion
    >> on the lines did.

    >
    >I've never seen a coherent explanation of how DC distribution would
    >have ever worked on a large scale. Trading off voltage for current and
    >vice-versa for long-distance travel vs. local distribution is easy with
    >AC transformers. But no simple/inexpensive equivalent for DC has
    >ever existed, has it?


    They can do it now, with modern high-voltage solid state devices -
    the LADWP has one end of a High Voltage DC intertie headed north to
    SCE-land, the Pacific Intertie. Two conductors, +500,000 VDC on one
    line -500,000 V on the other. Converter stations at each end to turn
    it back into AC, without any harmonics or synchronization problems.

    Heck, they could run one end at 50 Hz if they wanted to, no problem.

    Do that on all the major system links, and you reduce the problems
    of interconnecting different grids, and keeping the power systems of
    several adjoining states in split-second 60.000000 Hz lock step with
    each other.

    --<< Bruce >>--
    --
    Bruce L. Bergman, POB 394, Woodland Hills CA 91365, USA
    Electrician, Westend Electric (#726700) Agoura, CA

    WARNING: UCE Spam E-mail is not welcome here. I report violators.
    SpamBlock In Use - Remove the "Python" with a "net" to E-Mail.
  12. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    <dmills@spamblock.demon.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >I guess I can see it for Gas turbine where the shaft speed is inherently
    >high and a high frequency alternator will reduce size & weight, but I
    >very much doubt that inverters will catch on for most conventional sub
    >250KVA machines which are usaually spark ignition gas engines.


    Actually, a few of the smaller generators out there are already three-phase
    alternators going into a rectifier and then an inverter. Doing this allows
    you to have very wide speed variations and still maintain very stable
    frequency regulation. This is a big deal when you're using a standalone
    generator in the field (with no grid to provide frequency stability) and
    you are running off a small gasoline motor without accurate and rapid
    throttle control or enough mass to smooth speed variations down.

    We got one of them as a rental unit at a folk festival I worked this
    summer and I am trying to remember who made it. It wasn't Honda or
    Coleman but it was one of those guys. This was a little baby 2KVA or 3KVA
    unit. It seemed fine enough; I was spending all my time trying to keep
    older rental units with blown head gaskets running to pay much attention.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  13. Scott Dorsey wrote:
    > <dmills@spamblock.demon.co.uk> wrote:
    >
    >> I guess I can see it for Gas turbine where the shaft speed is inherently
    >> high and a high frequency alternator will reduce size & weight, but I
    >> very much doubt that inverters will catch on for most conventional sub
    >> 250KVA machines which are usaually spark ignition gas engines.

    >
    >
    > Actually, a few of the smaller generators out there are already three-phase
    > alternators going into a rectifier and then an inverter. Doing this allows
    > you to have very wide speed variations and still maintain very stable
    > frequency regulation. This is a big deal when you're using a standalone
    > generator in the field (with no grid to provide frequency stability) and
    > you are running off a small gasoline motor without accurate and rapid
    > throttle control or enough mass to smooth speed variations down.
    >
    > We got one of them as a rental unit at a folk festival I worked this
    > summer and I am trying to remember who made it. It wasn't Honda or
    > Coleman but it was one of those guys. This was a little baby 2KVA or 3KVA
    > unit. It seemed fine enough


    Sure it wasn't a Honda EU2000 or EU3000? They've become rather popular
    with the RV crowd lately since the engine RPMs are much lower when the
    A/C's not running.
  14. "Bruce L. Bergman" wrote ...
    > They can do it now, with modern high-voltage solid state devices -
    > the LADWP has one end of a High Voltage DC intertie headed north to
    > SCE-land, the Pacific Intertie. Two conductors, +500,000 VDC on one
    > line -500,000 V on the other. Converter stations at each end to turn
    > it back into AC, without any harmonics or synchronization problems.
    >
    > Heck, they could run one end at 50 Hz if they wanted to, no problem.
    >
    > Do that on all the major system links, and you reduce the problems
    > of interconnecting different grids, and keeping the power systems of
    > several adjoining states in split-second 60.000000 Hz lock step with
    > each other.


    Even today, 100 years post-Edison, it is practical only for massive intertie
    use. It may never be practical for local, neighborhood, street-by-street
    distribution. That was my point. No apparent counter-arguments.
  15. On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:30:53 -0700, someone who calls themselves
    "Richard Crowley" <rcrowley7@xprt.net> wrote:
    >"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote ...


    >> They can do it now, with modern high-voltage solid state devices -
    >> the LADWP has one end of a High Voltage DC intertie headed north to
    >> SCE-land, the Pacific Intertie. Two conductors, +500,000 VDC on one
    >> line -500,000 V on the other. Converter stations at each end to turn
    >> it back into AC, without any harmonics or synchronization problems.

    >
    >Even today, 100 years post-Edison, it is practical only for massive intertie
    >use. It may never be practical for local, neighborhood, street-by-street
    >distribution. That was my point. No apparent counter-arguments.


    Well, at least the eponym Edison tried to get started never caught
    on, where he wanted to refer to executions in an AC powered electric
    chair as being "Westinghoused" instead of electrocuted.

    --<< Bruce >>--
    --
    Bruce L. Bergman, POB 394, Woodland Hills CA 91365, USA
    Electrician, Westend Electric (#726700) Agoura, CA

    WARNING: UCE Spam E-mail is not welcome here. I report violators.
    SpamBlock In Use - Remove the "Python" with a "net" to E-Mail.
  16. Arny Krueger

    Arny Krueger Guest

    "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
    news:bi48ch$mn2$1@panix2.panix.com
    > <dmills@spamblock.demon.co.uk> wrote:
    >>
    >> I guess I can see it for Gas turbine where the shaft speed is
    >> inherently high and a high frequency alternator will reduce size &
    >> weight, but I very much doubt that inverters will catch on for most
    >> conventional sub 250KVA machines which are usually spark ignition
    >> gas engines.

    >
    > Actually, a few of the smaller generators out there are already
    > three-phase alternators going into a rectifier and then an inverter.


    A little searching on the two words generator and inverter provided
    considerable support for this claim.

    For example, this appears to be a typical product from a mainstream
    manufacturer:

    http://www.independent-power.com/gen_yamaha.htm

    "Yamaha YG2800i We recommend this least offensive of the fossil fueled
    generators to those of you who need to occasionally use it to back up your
    PV system. Our typical off grid homeowner uses a generator like this
    anywhere from 5 to 100 hours per year. Due to its clean output this
    amazingly efficient little generator charges batteries faster than some
    generators rated between 4,000 to 8,000 watts . Using a sixteen-pole rotor
    with twenty-four coil stator and onboard Pulse Width Modulation inverter it
    produces a full width, unclipped sine wave. Voltage stability is within ±
    1%, frequency stability is ± 0.1 Hz, and THD is less than 2.5% making it
    ideal for powering sophisticated electronics."

    Very clearly sub 250 KVA and very clearly OHV (spark ignition).

    > Doing this allows you to have very wide speed variations and still
    > maintain very stable frequency regulation. This is a big deal when
    > you're using a standalone generator in the field (with no grid to
    > provide frequency stability) and you are running off a small gasoline
    > motor without accurate and rapid throttle control or enough mass to
    > smooth speed variations down.


    It retails for ca. $1,169.99.

    http://www.dajosales.com/mak28watgen.html

    A comparable *conventional" 2800 watt gasoline Japanese-built generator runs
    more like $969. So you pay $200 for the extra-clean power. Seems worth the
    extra bucks to me, unless all you were going to run is big-and-tough power
    tools and other rough-and-ready loads.


    > We got one of them as a rental unit at a folk festival I worked this
    > summer and I am trying to remember who made it. It wasn't Honda or
    > Coleman but it was one of those guys. This was a little baby 2KVA or
    > 3KVA unit. It seemed fine enough; I was spending all my time trying
    > to keep older rental units with blown head gaskets running to pay
    > much attention.


    It could have been a Yammy like the one I referenced, above.

    Thanks for the anecdote. Should I ever want to acquire a generator, I'll
    know what to look for.
  17. Arny Krueger <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:
    > "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
    > news:bi48ch$mn2$1@panix2.panix.com
    >> <dmills@spamblock.demon.co.uk> wrote:
    >>>
    >>> I guess I can see it for Gas turbine where the shaft speed is
    >>> inherently high and a high frequency alternator will reduce size &
    >>> weight, but I very much doubt that inverters will catch on for most
    >>> conventional sub 250KVA machines which are usually spark ignition
    >>> gas engines.

    >>
    >> Actually, a few of the smaller generators out there are already
    >> three-phase alternators going into a rectifier and then an inverter.


    > A little searching on the two words generator and inverter provided
    > considerable support for this claim.


    > Very clearly sub 250 KVA and very clearly OHV (spark ignition).


    Very interesting, you will note that I said MOST, and actually I was
    thinking in terms of machines large enougth to be useful in a CHP or
    similar scheme which is likely where the economics of small engine
    driven plants come into their own in a situation where the grid is
    normally available. I was forgetting all about the small man portable
    market as I doubt that there machines are a reasonable power source for
    many applications where the grid is available with reasonable convinience.

    That said, I can see lots of applications for small inverter based
    machines like this.

    > A comparable *conventional" 2800 watt gasoline Japanese-built generator runs
    > more like $969. So you pay $200 for the extra-clean power. Seems worth the
    > extra bucks to me, unless all you were going to run is big-and-tough power
    > tools and other rough-and-ready loads.


    Indeed, for our purposes it is potentially a very useful idea, I am
    just not sold on it as a reasonable thing to hang on the end of a net
    metering setup.

    > Thanks for the anecdote. Should I ever want to acquire a generator, I'll
    > know what to look for.


    Indeed, new tricks are always good.

    Regards, Dan.
    --
    ** The email address *IS* valid, do NOT remove the spamblock
    And on the evening of the first day the lord said...........
    ..... LX 1, GO!; and there was light.
  18. Arny Krueger

    Arny Krueger Guest

    <dmills@spamblock.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
    news:qql8ib.i81.ln@spamblock.demon.co.uk

    > Very interesting, you will note that I said MOST, and actually I was
    > thinking in terms of machines large enough to be useful in a CHP or
    > similar scheme which is likely where the economics of small engine
    > driven plants come into their own in a situation where the grid is
    > normally available. I was forgetting all about the small man portable
    > market as I doubt that there machines are a reasonable power source
    > for many applications where the grid is available with reasonable
    > convenience.


    > That said, I can see lots of applications for small inverter based
    > machines like this.


    The big pluses I see for these generator-inverter sets is their low noise
    and increased fuel efficiency. Freeing generators from the need to run at a
    fixed speed for a given output frequency seems to provide lots of dividends.
    The requirement was just waiting on the right technology at the right price.

    It seems probable to me that in time nobody will bother to do it any other
    way.

    Particularly interesting are the generator/inverters with the ability to
    meet short peak demands by tapping into a battery. People are obviously
    sizing these units to start induction motors, and removing that requirement
    from motor and generator sizing will make far smaller and more economical
    units even more applicable.

    The tie between generator/inverter technology and hybrid propulsion is
    pretty exciting to me. The ca. 1930 idea of replacing mechanical
    transmissions with motor-generator sets might be upon us with a vengeance!
    All that was missing in 1930 were big, cheap amplifiers.

    ;-)
  19. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    Arny Krueger <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:
    >The big pluses I see for these generator-inverter sets is their low noise
    >and increased fuel efficiency. Freeing generators from the need to run at a
    >fixed speed for a given output frequency seems to provide lots of dividends.
    >The requirement was just waiting on the right technology at the right price.


    It occurs to me that I have a spare weedeater engine and a 100W inverter
    sitting around in my garage, along with an alternator from a VW bug. Are
    you thinking what I'm thinking?

    Just wait until field day!
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  20. Arny Krueger

    Arny Krueger Guest

    "Scott Dorsey" <kludge@panix.com> wrote in message
    news:bibpqn$ius$1@panix2.panix.com...
    > Arny Krueger <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:


    > >The big pluses I see for these generator-inverter sets is their low noise
    > >and increased fuel efficiency. Freeing generators from the need to run at

    a
    > >fixed speed for a given output frequency seems to provide lots of

    dividends.
    > >The requirement was just waiting on the right technology at the right

    price.

    > It occurs to me that I have a spare weedeater engine and a 100W inverter
    > sitting around in my garage, along with an alternator from a VW bug. Are
    > you thinking what I'm thinking?


    The worst fly I see in the ointment is the VW bug generator. My son had one
    in his campmobile that just didn't last, but had to be rebuilt again and
    again. It seems like an alternator from a more modern vehicle, probably one
    with a built-in regulator, would be preferable. Then, add a small battery
    for short-term surges. Automatic throttle control for the engine seems like
    it could take some work.

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