Re: Hard disks/archiving (was RADAR vs 2' ?)

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by Les Cargill, Aug 23, 2003.

  1. Les Cargill

    Les Cargill Guest

    Ted Spencer wrote:
    >

    <snip>
    >
    > I'm currently using DVD-R for long term archives, but I've read some comments
    > here recently suggesting that they're "unproven" as such (others disagree),
    > although I haven't had any problems so far in the roughly 2 years I've been
    > using them. I'd be very interested in hearing if people have been experiencing
    > failures with data-verified dackups on DVD-R, and if so after what lengths of
    > time, and in what kinds of storage conditions.
    >


    I've been kvetching about this on here. All I know is what I've read about,
    and 2 years doesn't prove the medium as archival. Doesn't mean it ain't,
    either. I don't have a DVD-R yet, so no empirical nor anecdotal evidence
    is available form here.

    You might be able to duplicate the backups annually.

    > The DAW age is still pretty new and the risk of data loss in archival media
    > could be catastrophic if we don't handle it correctly. There's no "bulletproof"
    > solution yet, but I think we need to examine the means we have and find an
    > acceptable comfort level with some form of technology that has a reasonably
    > high expectation of long term stability. Any thoughts from the group on this
    > would be appreciated.


    Streaming tape units are harder and harder to find. When asking a couple
    of local IT guys, they essentially say network all the systems that
    can be networked and switch your servers out every couple-five years.

    They also point to using some of the inexpensive RAID stuff out there.

    If an (un-networked) box has a hole for an extra harddrive, back it up
    to a removable harddrive periodically. But this harddrive can't be
    "dungeoned".

    I personally am still using CDRW for now.

    > Ted Spencer, NYC
    >
    > "No amount of classical training will ever teach you what's so cool about
    > "Tighten Up" by Archie Bell And The Drells" -author unknown



    --
    Les Cargill
  2. John  LeBlanc

    John LeBlanc Guest

    "Ted Spencer" <prestokid@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:20030823101041.06062.00000269@mb-m19.aol.com...

    > The DAW age is still pretty new and the risk of data loss in archival

    media
    > could be catastrophic if we don't handle it correctly. There's no

    "bulletproof"
    > solution yet, but I think we need to examine the means we have and find an
    > acceptable comfort level with some form of technology that has a

    reasonably
    > high expectation of long term stability. Any thoughts from the group on

    this
    > would be appreciated.


    Wouldn't it be sickly ironic if the professional concensus ends up being
    that the only current bullet proof, long term solution is dumping your
    tracks through D/A converters onto 2"?

    John
  3. Dave Martin

    Dave Martin Guest

    "John LeBlanc" <john__leblanc@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:b7Ocnbdg79JiFNqiXTWJhg@giganews.com...
    >
    > Wouldn't it be sickly ironic if the professional concensus ends up being
    > that the only current bullet proof, long term solution is dumping your
    > tracks through D/A converters onto 2"?
    >

    It would be, except that 2" is nowhere near bulletproof.


    --
    Dave Martin
    Java Jive Studio
    Nashville, TN
    www.javajivestudio.com
  4. Mondoslug1

    Mondoslug1 Guest

    lcargil wrote:

    >Ted Spencer wrote:
    >>

    ><snip>
    >>
    >> I'm currently using DVD-R for long term archives, but I've read some

    >comments
    >> here recently suggesting that they're "unproven" as such (others disagree),
    >> although I haven't had any problems so far in the roughly 2 years I've been
    >> using them. I'd be very interested in hearing if people have been

    >experiencing
    >> failures with data-verified dackups on DVD-R, and if so after what lengths

    >of
    >> time, and in what kinds of storage conditions.
    >>

    >
    >I've been kvetching about this on here. All I know is what I've read about,
    >and 2 years doesn't prove the medium as archival. Doesn't mean it ain't,
    >either. I don't have a DVD-R yet, so no empirical nor anecdotal evidence
    >is available form here.
    >
    >You might be able to duplicate the backups annually.
    >



    Just copy the DVD-Rs every now again. You don't want to hear that stuff in 10
    years anyway.

    In my most unscientific opinion. Radar rawks...what's not to like?


    >> The DAW age is still pretty new and the risk of data loss in archival media
    >> could be catastrophic if we don't handle it correctly. There's no

    >"bulletproof"
    >> solution yet, but I think we need to examine the means we have and find an
    >> acceptable comfort level with some form of technology that has a reasonably
    >> high expectation of long term stability. Any thoughts from the group on

    >this
    >> would be appreciated.

    >
    >Streaming tape units are harder and harder to find. When asking a couple
    >of local IT guys, they essentially say network all the systems that
    >can be networked and switch your servers out every couple-five years.
    >
    >They also point to using some of the inexpensive RAID stuff out there.
    >
    >If an (un-networked) box has a hole for an extra harddrive, back it up
    >to a removable harddrive periodically. But this harddrive can't be
    >"dungeoned".
    >
    >I personally am still using CDRW for now.
    >
    >> Ted Spencer, NYC
    >>
    >> "No amount of classical training will ever teach you what's so cool about
    >> "Tighten Up" by Archie Bell And The Drells" -author unknown

    >
    >
    >--
    >Les Cargill
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >






    My tunes at:
    http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm
  5. I'm currently using DVD-R for long term archives, but I've read some
    comments
    > here recently suggesting that they're "unproven" as such (others disagree),
    > although I haven't had any problems so far in the roughly 2 years I've been
    > using them. I'd be very interested in hearing if people have been experiencing
    > failures with data-verified dackups on DVD-R, and if so after what lengths of
    > time, and in what kinds of storage conditions.

    *****************************************************************************

    I'm looking at purchasing a DVD drive as a long term storage device
    for my Genex GX9000. I already have both of my onboard drive bays
    filled with Seagate hard drives, so I will need to get a stand-alone
    DVD burner. Genex states that multi track backups can be written to
    AES31 format DVD rewritable drives, but nobodby seems to know whether
    that means DVD+RW or DVD-RW.

    Is anyone else out making multi-track copies on AES31 format DVD
    rewritable drives? Can you recommend a specific model number? None
    of the DVD recorder manafacturers mention anything about AES31 - I'm
    guessing that studios using their machines to back up multi-track
    files are only a tiny fraction of their sales, so the manufacturers
    are more concerned with consumer use. Anyone know of any DVD
    recorders that are marketed as "data storage devices" intended for pro
    use?
  6. Ted Spencer

    Ted Spencer Guest

    Geez I can't believed I typed "dackups"...argh
    Ted Spencer, NYC

    "No amount of classical training will ever teach you what's so cool about
    "Tighten Up" by Archie Bell And The Drells" -author unknown
  7. david

    david Guest

    In article <20030823160846.06062.00000272@mb-m19.aol.com>, Mondoslug1
    <mondoslug1@aol.com> wrote:

    > Just copy the DVD-Rs every now again. You don't want to hear that stuff in 10
    > years anyway.




    I just worked on 3 songs I recorded on 2" in 1986. Ya never know ...




    David Correia
    Celebration Sound
    Warren, Rhode Island

    CelebrationSound@aol.com
    www.CelebrationSound.com
  8. in article 55147cb4.0308231249.4f2654e1@posting.google.com, hollywood_steve
    at sjp@soca.com wrote on 8/23/03 2:49 PM:

    >*****
    >
    > I'm looking at purchasing a DVD drive as a long term storage device
    > for my Genex GX9000. I already have both of my onboard drive bays
    > filled with Seagate hard drives, so I will need to get a stand-alone
    > DVD burner. Genex states that multi track backups can be written to
    > AES31 format DVD rewritable drives, but nobodby seems to know whether
    > that means DVD+RW or DVD-RW.
    >
    > Is anyone else out making multi-track copies on AES31 format DVD
    > rewritable drives? Can you recommend a specific model number? None
    > of the DVD recorder manafacturers mention anything about AES31 - I'm
    > guessing that studios using their machines to back up multi-track
    > files are only a tiny fraction of their sales, so the manufacturers
    > are more concerned with consumer use. Anyone know of any DVD
    > recorders that are marketed as "data storage devices" intended for pro
    > use?



    Can you hook the external right up to the Genex to do the backup? If so the
    DVD+RW or DVD-RW thing is really a person preference. It will write the data
    to either format if the Genex will recognize the drive. I saw from the
    website that there is a firewire interface on the unit. It may work
    depending on the software backup routine installed in the machine.

    For drives check out the Pioneer DVR-A05 (or 105) DVD drives. You can buy
    the bare drive & buy an external case that has the Oxford 911 chipset and
    firewire interface on it. Or get one of the bundled drives from any of the
    computer places.

    Best of luck!

    Tom Jancauskas
    Imedia
  9. Does anyone remember the ending of Paul Simon's movie "One Trick Pony"? Man! I nearly
    shouted out loud when he took the 2" master and rolled it down the street. It made me
    feel queasy. It's one of those images that will always stick in my mind. I would have
    been scrambling down the road trying to catch and stop the reel, then carefully winding
    it back up to try to fix it. They were messin' with me...Patric

    Mike Rivers wrote:

    > In article <bi88id$6jj7h$1@ID-190397.news.uni-berlin.de> dmainc@earthlink.net writes:
    >
    > > > Wouldn't it be sickly ironic if the professional concensus ends up being
    > > > that the only current bullet proof, long term solution is dumping your
    > > > tracks through D/A converters onto 2"?
    > > >

    > > It would be, except that 2" is nowhere near bulletproof.

    >
    > Oh, I'll bet you can recover more of a 2" tape that's been hit by a
    > bullet than a hard drive that's been hit with a bullet.
    >
    > --
    > I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  10. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <bi88id$6jj7h$1@ID-190397.news.uni-berlin.de> dmainc@earthlink.net writes:

    > > Wouldn't it be sickly ironic if the professional concensus ends up being
    > > that the only current bullet proof, long term solution is dumping your
    > > tracks through D/A converters onto 2"?
    > >

    > It would be, except that 2" is nowhere near bulletproof.


    Oh, I'll bet you can recover more of a 2" tape that's been hit by a
    bullet than a hard drive that's been hit with a bullet.



    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  11. EggHd

    EggHd Guest

    << Oh, I'll bet you can recover more of a 2" tape that's been hit by a
    bullet than a hard drive that's been hit with a bullet. >>

    So you're talking about a RAP session now?



    ---------------------------------------
    "I know enough to know I don't know enough"
  12. >Does anyone remember the ending of Paul Simon's movie "One Trick Pony"? Man!
    >I nearly
    >shouted out loud when he took the 2" master and rolled it down the street.
    >It made me
    >feel queasy.


    Long ago I was engineering at a studio when the singer of a band flipped out
    and started yelling about how all the tracks sounded like shit (they'd been
    tracking for four weeks) and he ripped the reel off the machine and started
    stomping on it.........
    But he was wearing Keds and weighed about a hundred and thirty pounds soaking
    wet so he didn't do much damage to it. One of the other band member's
    girlfriends restrained him and I grabbed the reel from under his pretty yellow
    sneaker and it ended up playing fine. Pretty weird day though.
    Steve
  13. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <3F4BDEBA.1FA723BD@gci.net> patric@gci.net writes:

    > Does anyone remember the ending of Paul Simon's movie "One Trick Pony"? Man!
    > I nearly
    > shouted out loud when he took the 2" master and rolled it down the street. It
    > made me
    > feel queasy. It's one of those images that will always stick in my mind.


    Oh, it was probalby an old reel of videotape. Movie effects are great,
    aren't they?



    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  14. Mike Rivers wrote:

    > Oh, I'll bet you can recover more of a 2" tape that's been hit by a
    > bullet than a hard drive that's been hit with a bullet.


    Do I see the next AES T-shirt????

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