Re:US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

Discussion in 'rec.music.percussion' started by Frode Berg, Jul 19, 2003.

  1. Frode Berg

    Frode Berg Guest

    Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:

    US jazz in general has stagnated.
    US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
    instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from the
    beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
    it.

    To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the music
    known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
    There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences of
    European classical music, folk music etc.

    Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
    Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
    get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a fiercer,
    more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
    while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"

    I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
    I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
    music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)

    Let the discussion begin.

    Frode Berg



    "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
    news:3F18E585.5040109@earthlink.net...
    > Zee Dodo wrote:
    > > "If there has to be electricity, I want it to come from me"
    > > - KEITH JARRETT
    > >
    > > Friends, let us consider the facts here:
    > >
    > > * In the entire history of jazz music, in which hundreds of thousands,
    > > if not millions have played jazz or had a go at trying to, less than
    > > 10 people --- yes, less than 0.0001% -- have succeeded in making jazz
    > > music on electric instruments.

    >
    > Are you including vibes players here?
    >
    > And have you checked in with your answering service lately?
    >
    >
    >
    > John
    >
    > --
    > Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
    >
  2. In rec.music.makers.percussion Frode Berg <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote:
    > Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:


    > US jazz in general has stagnated.
    > US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
    > instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from the
    > beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
    > it.


    Semi-true! You can see that in these threads on jazz instrument "rules".

    > To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the music
    > known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.


    Actually there is some ground-breaking jazz in the Yew Ess, but ...

    > There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences of
    > European classical music, folk music etc.


    Exactly! The new ground uses influences outside the "museum"!
    Latin jazz being one such hot area that comes to mind!

    Benj
  3. Michael Fell

    Michael Fell Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    On 19 Jul 2003 17:08:13 GMT, bjacoby@users.iwaynet.net wrote:

    >In rec.music.makers.percussion Frode Berg <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote:
    >> Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:

    >
    >> US jazz in general has stagnated.


    Music in general has stagnated worldwide.


    >> US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music


    Thats a bad thing? Lot's of countries are obessed with the tradition
    of their music.

    >that
    >> instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from the
    >> beginning up until approx 1970,-


    I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
    beyond Coltrane. Perhaps there is some European jazz artist i don't
    know about that surpassed Coltrane? If so, I would be very interested
    in hearing this musician. Then hell will freeze over right?

    >they are now making museum pieces out of
    >> it.


    That's good. When something is good why change it?
    >
    >Semi-true! You can see that in these threads on jazz instrument "rules".
    >
    >> To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the music
    >> known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.

    >
    >Actually there is some ground-breaking jazz in the Yew Ess, but ...


    You mean there was. After Coltrane died it has been pretty much down
    hill from there.

    >
    >> There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences of
    >> European classical music, folk music etc.

    >
    >Exactly! The new ground uses influences outside the "museum"!
    >Latin jazz being one such hot area that comes to mind!
    >
    >Benj


    Benji, Latin Jazz has been around for decades and it is part of the
    museum.

    Mike
  4. Bill Ray

    Bill Ray Guest

    True dat, Frode.

    American Jazz has turned into either this stuffy wallpaper music that they
    play at cocktail hour because it's non-threatening and "quiet" and the
    purists can sit there in their ivory towers and reminesce on the 'good ol'
    days'. Or, it's gone completely the opposite way and turned into the Jacuzzi
    Jazz variety (read "Lights-Out Jazz")

    OTOH, I think that the SPIRIT of jazz has opened many doors and evolved such
    artists as Tribal Tech (Scott Henderson) Jonas Hellborg, Project Z, and
    others in that frame. Hell, even the Grateful Dead had jazz stylings within
    the paradigm of their music!

    In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz bag
    DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than anything
    I've seen.

    Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the times.


    BR

    "Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote in message
    news:Tt7Sa.3652$BD3.1798929@juliett.dax.net...
    > Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
    >
    > US jazz in general has stagnated.
    > US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
    > instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from

    the
    > beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
    > it.
    >
    > To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the

    music
    > known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
    > There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences

    of
    > European classical music, folk music etc.
    >
    > Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
    > Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
    > get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a

    fiercer,
    > more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
    > while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
    >
    > I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
    > I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
    > music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
    >
    > Let the discussion begin.
    >
    > Frode Berg
    >
    >
    >
    > "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
    > news:3F18E585.5040109@earthlink.net...
    > > Zee Dodo wrote:
    > > > "If there has to be electricity, I want it to come from me"
    > > > - KEITH JARRETT
    > > >
    > > > Friends, let us consider the facts here:
    > > >
    > > > * In the entire history of jazz music, in which hundreds of thousands,
    > > > if not millions have played jazz or had a go at trying to, less than
    > > > 10 people --- yes, less than 0.0001% -- have succeeded in making jazz
    > > > music on electric instruments.

    > >
    > > Are you including vibes players here?
    > >
    > > And have you checked in with your answering service lately?
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > John
    > >
    > > --
    > > Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
    > >

    >
    >
  5. Jerry

    Jerry Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:10:15 UTC, Michael Fell <mfell2112@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > Music in general has stagnated worldwide.


    ...or maybe it's just catching its breath. The same attitude
    (stagnation) is reflected in the Classical newsgroups. Nothing
    significant has happened to music in the US since bop, Fifties Rock &
    Roll, and a solid (and needed) infusion of Latin/Brazilian jazz. One
    of these days something new and significant will rise up and capture
    the listeners' ears. (Hint: it ain't "smooth jazz" or "avant-garde"
    jazz.)

    I still hear lots of good stuff in the straight-ahead and Latin Jazz
    genres that are in no way boring. I also find this in the classics in
    the rare cases where composers have the guts to go against the
    extremist reviews and write musical music.

    Another point is that there is still a LOT of good music that I have
    yet to hear. I want to hear that music --- in various styles!

    Jerry
    --
  6. Jerry

    Jerry Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:10:15 UTC, Michael Fell <mfell2112@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
    > beyond Coltrane. Perhaps there is some European jazz artist i don't
    > know about that surpassed Coltrane? If so, I would be very interested
    > in hearing this musician. Then hell will freeze over right?


    Well, now you're getting into the area of opinion. IMHO Coltrane left
    jazz when he left Miles, and Miles left jazz when he took on Wayne
    Shorter. (And, yes, I own CDs by these guys had have tried to like
    them.)

    There's a difference between taking music to its limits and going
    beyond them.

    Jerry
    --
  7. Jerry

    Jerry Guest

    On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:22:36 UTC, "Bill Ray"
    <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote:

    > In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz bag
    > DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than anything
    > I've seen.
    >
    > Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the times


    There's a lot more to be said, but the Europeans have been turning out
    excellent stuff since Django. But let mention Arne Domnerus (sp?)
    group as being epochal.

    Jerry
    --
  8. Frode Berg

    Frode Berg Guest

    Arne Domnerus is Swedish.

    Frode

    "Jerry" <prather.js@verizon.net> skrev i melding
    news:EsFkI7LVLls8-pn2-CQPJdjmuhKdK@localhost...
    > On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:22:36 UTC, "Bill Ray"
    > <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote:
    >
    > > In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz

    bag
    > > DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than

    anything
    > > I've seen.
    > >
    > > Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the

    times
    >
    > There's a lot more to be said, but the Europeans have been turning out
    > excellent stuff since Django. But let mention Arne Domnerus (sp?)
    > group as being epochal.
    >
    > Jerry
    > --
    >
  9. Michael Fell

    Michael Fell Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 21:43:08 GMT, "Jerry" <prather.js@verizon.net>
    wrote:

    >On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:10:15 UTC, Michael Fell <mfell2112@yahoo.com>
    >wrote:
    >
    >> I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
    >> beyond Coltrane. Perhaps there is some European jazz artist i don't
    >> know about that surpassed Coltrane? If so, I would be very interested
    >> in hearing this musician. Then hell will freeze over right?

    >
    >Well, now you're getting into the area of opinion. IMHO Coltrane left
    >jazz when he left Miles,


    Wow, what was up with that "love Supreme"album then?. Not Jazzy enough
    for you?


    >and Miles left jazz when he took on Wayne
    >Shorter.


    Perhaps I could agree with you on this.

    > (And, yes, I own CDs by these guys had have tried to like
    >them.)
    >
    >There's a difference between taking music to its limits and going
    >beyond them.


    Your point is?

    Mike
  10. Michael Fell

    Michael Fell Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 12:22:36 -0700, "Bill Ray"
    <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote:

    >True dat, Frode.
    >
    >American Jazz has turned into either this stuffy wallpaper music that they
    >play at cocktail hour because it's non-threatening and "quiet" and the
    >purists can sit there in their ivory towers and reminesce on the 'good ol'
    >days'. Or, it's gone completely the opposite way and turned into the Jacuzzi
    >Jazz variety (read "Lights-Out Jazz")
    >
    >OTOH, I think that the SPIRIT of jazz has opened many doors and evolved such
    >artists as Tribal Tech (Scott Henderson)


    Tribal tech is Fusion Bill and they seem to have the spirit of a
    variety of styles of music. Scott Henderson is a wonderful musician.
    He is one of my favorites.

    > Jonas Hellborg, Project Z, and
    >others in that frame. Hell, even the Grateful Dead had jazz stylings within
    >the paradigm of their music!


    Again these groups use a variety of musical styles in their music.
    Jazz is a small part of it.

    >
    >In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz bag
    >DOWN.


    Bill America has the Jazz bag down as well.

    >They took an American art form and have upheld it better than anything
    >I've seen.


    Come to Chicago and check out the Greg Rockingham trio (Greg played
    drums with Charles Earland and many others). Greg is kicking butt and
    taking names. Lets see the Euros top that.:)


    >
    >Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the times.


    Was that called for?:)
    >

    Mike
  11. Abjorn

    Abjorn Guest

    "Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> skrev i meddelandet
    news:pplSa.3709$BD3.1820784@juliett.dax.net...
    > Arne Domnerus is Swedish.
    >
    > Frode


    And it should be "Domnérus".

    Bjarne Nereem was great, too, and he was Norwegian.

    Abjorn


    >
    > "Jerry" <prather.js@verizon.net> skrev i melding
    > news:EsFkI7LVLls8-pn2-CQPJdjmuhKdK@localhost...
    > > On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:22:36 UTC, "Bill Ray"
    > > <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote:
    > >
    > > > In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz

    > bag
    > > > DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than

    > anything
    > > > I've seen.
    > > >
    > > > Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the

    > times
    > >
    > > There's a lot more to be said, but the Europeans have been turning out
    > > excellent stuff since Django. But let mention Arne Domnerus (sp?)
    > > group as being epochal.
    > >
    > > Jerry
    > > --
    > >

    >
    >
  12. Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    Michael Fell wrote:

    > I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
    > beyond Coltrane.


    This is exactly the sort of idiotic view that makes jazz stagnate and
    turn into museum mould. No one takes anything to "limits." There's no
    universal speed limit to creativity.



    John

    --
    Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
  13. Abjorn

    Abjorn Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i meddelandet
    news:3F1A3C9C.2020703@earthlink.net...
    > Michael Fell wrote:
    >
    > > I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
    > > beyond Coltrane.

    >
    > This is exactly the sort of idiotic view that makes jazz stagnate and
    > turn into museum mould. No one takes anything to "limits." There's no
    > universal speed limit to creativity.
    >
    >
    >
    > John
    >

    I think he rather took it outside the limits of jazz.

    Then some fanatics still call it jazz and most listeners are scared away
    from the music.

    Abjorn
  14. "Abjorn" <abjorn@telia.com> wrote in message
    news:qTqSa.20903$dP1.39360@newsc.telia.net
    >
    > And it should be "Domnérus".
    >


    Now, there's a fellow who gets better as he gets older. "DOMPAN!" is a
    classic of real jazz. Good liner notes too.


    --
    Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
  15. Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> wrote in message
    news:3F1A3C9C.2020703@earthlink.net

    > Michael Fell wrote:
    >
    > > I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
    > > beyond Coltrane.

    >
    > This is exactly the sort of idiotic view that makes jazz stagnate and
    > turn into museum mould. No one takes anything to "limits." There's no
    > universal speed limit to creativity.


    The funny thing is that around the end (post mid-65), Coltrane wasn't
    even playing jazz. His "sound experiments" were undoubtedly
    interesting, but the sad thing is that some of his fans have mistaken
    them for jazz and completely missed the point of what he was trying to
    say.


    --
    Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
  16. Abjorn

    Abjorn Guest

    "Dez Dankworth" <dez_dankworth@yahoo.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
    news:16873f056e87f93e38e195db74662ea5.124712@mygate.mailgate.org...
    > "Abjorn" <abjorn@telia.com> wrote in message
    > news:qTqSa.20903$dP1.39360@newsc.telia.net
    > >
    > > And it should be "Domnérus".
    > >

    >
    > Now, there's a fellow who gets better as he gets older. "DOMPAN!" is a
    > classic of real jazz. Good liner notes too.
    >

    "DOMPAN!" was released two years ago on Fresh Sound, and Arne himself
    considers it the best he has ever done.

    Abjorn
    >
    > --
    > Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
  17. Frode Berg

    Frode Berg Guest

    How do you get that thing over the "e"?

    Can's find it on my keyboard...

    By the way, it's "Nerem".

    Frode

    "Abjorn" <abjorn@telia.com> skrev i melding
    news:qTqSa.20903$dP1.39360@newsc.telia.net...
    >
    > "Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> skrev i meddelandet
    > news:pplSa.3709$BD3.1820784@juliett.dax.net...
    > > Arne Domnerus is Swedish.
    > >
    > > Frode

    >
    > And it should be "Domnérus".
    >
    > Bjarne Nereem was great, too, and he was Norwegian.
    >
    > Abjorn
    >
    >
    > >
    > > "Jerry" <prather.js@verizon.net> skrev i melding
    > > news:EsFkI7LVLls8-pn2-CQPJdjmuhKdK@localhost...
    > > > On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 19:22:36 UTC, "Bill Ray"
    > > > <bill@billraydrums.com_BLAH> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the

    jazz
    > > bag
    > > > > DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than

    > > anything
    > > > > I've seen.
    > > > >
    > > > > Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the

    > > times
    > > >
    > > > There's a lot more to be said, but the Europeans have been turning out
    > > > excellent stuff since Django. But let mention Arne Domnerus (sp?)
    > > > group as being epochal.
    > > >
    > > > Jerry
    > > > --
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    >
  18. Jerry

    Jerry Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 03:48:32 UTC, Michael Fell <mfell2112@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    > Your point is?


    To tell you (et al) where I established _my_ limits.

    Jerry
    --
  19. Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    > I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
    > beyond Coltrane. Perhaps there is some European jazz artist i don't
    > know about that surpassed Coltrane? If so, I would be very interested
    > in hearing this musician. Then hell will freeze over right?


    Norwegian sax-player Håkon Kornstad has taken up Trane`s heritage and in my
    opinion he has taken it even one step further.
    Chicago-based sax/reeds-man Ken Vandermark and his wonderful group
    "Vandermark 5" is also taking music to new places.

    I can upload an mp3 with Kornstad and his trio if you want to hear it. one
    of my favourite drummers, Paal Nillsen-Love, and a fantasticly lyrical
    bass-player, Mads Eilertsen is also on it.


    it`s mindblowing!

    peace,
    --Kyrre
  20. Michael Fell

    Michael Fell Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:54:32 GMT, John Grabowski <jgrab@earthlink.net>
    wrote:

    >Michael Fell wrote:
    >
    >> I thought Coltrane took Jazz to it's limits. I don't think you can go
    >> beyond Coltrane.

    >
    >This is exactly the sort of idiotic view that makes jazz stagnate and
    >turn into museum mould. No one takes anything to "limits." There's no
    >universal speed limit to creativity.
    >
    >
    >
    >John


    Then why has no one person surpassed Coltrane? I mean Zappa took
    Rock to it's limits right? Let's face it it is hard to top the
    greats.It looks to me like the modern cats (Europeans included) Don't
    come close to what the greats were doing 30 or more years ago. Then
    take into consideration the greats did it on yer typical instruments
    used in Jazz. There was no Synths or snorting pig sounds or tin cans.
    People that are using odd instrumentation don't have any fresh ideas
    so they decide to bring in an odd instrument and say "hey look at me I
    am being innovative". After their album sells 5 copies they look for
    more gimmicks. I always thought a good melody on the head was enough
    for a great Jazz tune. I mean it worked for Trane and Miles.

    Mike

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