Re:US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

Discussion in 'rec.music.percussion' started by Frode Berg, Jul 19, 2003.

  1. Jay Epstein

    Jay Epstein Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    Hi O,
    I'm with you here. I was just listening to Bobo's "Reflections" & "War
    Orphans" last week. Wonderful stuff. Have you ever heard his disc,
    "Very Early" from 1986 with Anders & Rune Carlsson on drums? It's a
    bit more 'inside' than the more recent ECM things, but great.

    Jay

    On 23 Jul 2003 00:17:34 -0700, b_jamesbond@hotmail.com (O-Lugs) wrote:
    >....Well, I agree that there is some really cool European stuff. I do
    >enjoy listening to many of the ECM recordings and I especially like
    >Bobo Stenson's trio with Jon Christensen on drums and Anders Jormin on
    >bass. Incredible players.
  2. O-Lugs

    O-Lugs Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    Jay Epstein <jazz@earth.man> wrote in message news:<5dethv847etklcdhb0gls8jc4pidi9fhqr@4ax.com>...
    > Hi O,
    > I'm with you here. I was just listening to Bobo's "Reflections" & "War
    > Orphans" last week. Wonderful stuff. Have you ever heard his disc,
    > "Very Early" from 1986 with Anders & Rune Carlsson on drums? It's a
    > bit more 'inside' than the more recent ECM things, but great.
    >
    > Jay
    >

    Hi, Jay!

    Yes, Reflections is great. Jeff just brought over the double-disc set
    of Bobo's trio on ECM....not brand new, but fairly new. I forget the
    name, but the cover art is a photograph of a type of lichen.
    Incredible stuff! Jon Christensen is always interesting. They are a
    real trio, in my opinion.
  3. Jay Epstein

    Jay Epstein Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    On 23 Jul 2003 17:16:45 -0700, b_jamesbond@hotmail.com (O-Lugs) wrote:

    >Jay Epstein <jazz@earth.man> wrote in message news:<5dethv847etklcdhb0gls8jc4pidi9fhqr@4ax.com>...
    >> Hi O,
    >> I'm with you here. I was just listening to Bobo's "Reflections" & "War
    >> Orphans" last week. Wonderful stuff. Have you ever heard his disc,
    >> "Very Early" from 1986 with Anders & Rune Carlsson on drums? It's a
    >> bit more 'inside' than the more recent ECM things, but great.
    >>
    >> Jay
    >>

    >Hi, Jay!
    >Yes, Reflections is great. Jeff just brought over the double-disc set
    >of Bobo's trio on ECM....not brand new, but fairly new. I forget the
    >name, but the cover art is a photograph of a type of lichen.
    >Incredible stuff! Jon Christensen is always interesting. They are a
    >real trio, in my opinion.


    O,
    That's 'Serenity'. I don't have it, but will ask Santa for it. Hello
    to Jeff from me!
    Jay
  4. Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    Rob doesn't understand that to define jazz is to admit complete
    misunderstanding of what its purpose is. If you define and exclude someone
    else's new creativity that has been influenced by any era of jazz music then
    you admit that your own musical growth has stopped. The only definition
    allowed is that of group improvisation and creative growth.

    --
    George Lawrence
    George's Drum Shop
    1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    Copley, Ohio 44321
    http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    http://www.Drumguru.com
    330 670 0800
    toll free 866 970 0800

    "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    buy each of his children a drum."
    -Chinese proverb




    "Robert Schuh" <rob@robschuh.com> wrote in message
    news:3F1E1E95.BBAE7180@robschuh.com...
    > Bill Ray wrote:
    >
    > > True dat, Frode.
    > >
    > > American Jazz has turned into either this stuffy wallpaper music that

    they
    > > play at cocktail hour because it's non-threatening and "quiet" and the
    > > purists can sit there in their ivory towers and reminesce on the 'good

    ol'
    > > days'. Or, it's gone completely the opposite way and turned into the

    Jacuzzi
    > > Jazz variety (read "Lights-Out Jazz")
    > >
    > > OTOH, I think that the SPIRIT of jazz has opened many doors and evolved

    such
    > > artists as Tribal Tech (Scott Henderson) Jonas Hellborg, Project Z, and
    > > others in that frame. Hell, even the Grateful Dead had jazz stylings

    within
    > > the paradigm of their music!
    > >
    > > In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz

    bag
    > > DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than

    anything
    > > I've seen.
    > >
    > > Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the

    times.
    > >
    > > BR
    > >

    >
    > Bill,
    > Why do you even bother commenting on Jazz? You know NOTHING about what is

    going
    > on in Jazz. Tribal Tech etc. is really dated sounding fusion that should

    have
    > died 20 years ago. You have never heard of Cecil Taylor, Dave Douglas,

    Tony
    > Malaby, Mark Helias, George Garzone and a million other Jazz musicians who

    are
    > playing KILLER music that while is VERY new and refreshing, it still has a
    > direct lineage to Bird, Trane etc. Sorry to tell you, but the European

    guys do
    > not have the Jazz thing down. Your sheltered little life of playing at Sea

    World
    > and wife beaters has implanted this nonsense in your head, but until you

    know
    > what is going on musically, don't comment. Your first sentence above has

    to be
    > THE most ignorant comment I have seen in Usenet in a LONG time. Then

    again,
    > there always have to me morons around so that those who know what they are
    > talking about stand out. I have seen it ALL now. Fucking Bill Ray is now
    > commenting on the state of American Jazz. Hey Bill, can you name a single

    Jazz
    > drummer who is playing today who is not being brown nosed by MD and other

    such
    > fish wraps?
    >
    > >
    > > "Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote in message
    > > news:Tt7Sa.3652$BD3.1798929@juliett.dax.net...
    > > > Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
    > > >
    > > > US jazz in general has stagnated.
    > > > US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music

    that
    > > > instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did

    from
    > > the
    > > > beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out

    of
    > > > it.
    > > >
    > > > To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the

    > > music
    > > > known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
    > > > There the music is constantly developing and shifting through

    influences
    > > of
    > > > European classical music, folk music etc.
    > > >
    > > > Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
    > > > Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than

    not
    > > > get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a

    > > fiercer,
    > > > more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous

    performer,
    > > > while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
    > > >
    > > > I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
    > > > I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play

    classical
    > > > music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
    > > >
    > > > Let the discussion begin.
    > > >
    > > > Frode Berg
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
    > > > news:3F18E585.5040109@earthlink.net...
    > > > > Zee Dodo wrote:
    > > > > > "If there has to be electricity, I want it to come from me"
    > > > > > - KEITH JARRETT
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Friends, let us consider the facts here:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > * In the entire history of jazz music, in which hundreds of

    thousands,
    > > > > > if not millions have played jazz or had a go at trying to, less

    than
    > > > > > 10 people --- yes, less than 0.0001% -- have succeeded in making

    jazz
    > > > > > music on electric instruments.
    > > > >
    > > > > Are you including vibes players here?
    > > > >
    > > > > And have you checked in with your answering service lately?
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > John
    > > > >
    > > > > --
    > > > > Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > >

    >
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    > Robert Schuh
    > "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
    > intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
    > the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
    > the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
    > - Nietzsche
    >
    > "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
    >
    >
    >
  5. Bill Ray

    Bill Ray Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    Just because I don't live life as a "Jazz" drummer doesn't make me
    completely ignorant of the idiom.

    For all who don't know, Rob has quite a problem with me, for what reason I
    do not know.

    Remember, it was not I that started this whole thing with Rob. It was his
    anon posts and degradation of my then-infant son, and my (among others)
    concerted efforts of sleuthing him out. Eventually he was caught up in hs
    own lies and still to this day won't admit to it.

    Also, for the uninitiated, Rob is as sneaky as a rat and is best handled by
    someone who is used to dealing with slimy creatures, vis-a-vis prison
    guards.

    And to further my position take a look at whuh has the annoying habit of
    attacking anyone who doesn't agree with him. Certainly not myself.

    This seems to be Rob's biggest problem with me; that I'm a "nice guy". Hell,
    I een had him in my house at one point and also took him and his "wife" to
    dinner. That was just too much for him to handle. Had I known any better I
    would have launched a pre-emptive strike against him and punched him in the
    face; certainly the physical equivalent of how he has struck out at me in
    verbage form here in this public forum. At least I would have been up front
    about it and not have to hide behind a keyboard.

    Oh, and among the many people that have met me here and also met Rob they
    can attest to his "talking shit" behind my back.

    Keep your distance from this guy; his only credibility as a human being, as
    he is so proud of trumpeting, is his brilliant Feedback on Ebay, hardly a
    facet of real life.

    BR
    (Who is not afraid to use his real name)
    "George Lawrence" <drumguru@ameritech.net> wrote in message
    news:mg_Ua.26685$BM.8788167@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
    > Rob doesn't understand that to define jazz is to admit complete
    > misunderstanding of what its purpose is. If you define and exclude someone
    > else's new creativity that has been influenced by any era of jazz music

    then
    > you admit that your own musical growth has stopped. The only definition
    > allowed is that of group improvisation and creative growth.
    >
    > --
    > George Lawrence
    > George's Drum Shop
    > 1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
    > Copley, Ohio 44321
    > http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
    > http://www.Drumguru.com
    > 330 670 0800
    > toll free 866 970 0800
    >
    > "If thine enemy wrong thee,
    > buy each of his children a drum."
    > -Chinese proverb
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > "Robert Schuh" <rob@robschuh.com> wrote in message
    > news:3F1E1E95.BBAE7180@robschuh.com...
    > > Bill Ray wrote:
    > >
    > > > True dat, Frode.
    > > >
    > > > American Jazz has turned into either this stuffy wallpaper music that

    > they
    > > > play at cocktail hour because it's non-threatening and "quiet" and the
    > > > purists can sit there in their ivory towers and reminesce on the 'good

    > ol'
    > > > days'. Or, it's gone completely the opposite way and turned into the

    > Jacuzzi
    > > > Jazz variety (read "Lights-Out Jazz")
    > > >
    > > > OTOH, I think that the SPIRIT of jazz has opened many doors and

    evolved
    > such
    > > > artists as Tribal Tech (Scott Henderson) Jonas Hellborg, Project Z,

    and
    > > > others in that frame. Hell, even the Grateful Dead had jazz stylings

    > within
    > > > the paradigm of their music!
    > > >
    > > > In my travels to Europe I can say that the Europeans have got the jazz

    > bag
    > > > DOWN. They took an American art form and have upheld it better than

    > anything
    > > > I've seen.
    > > >
    > > > Now go throw up, all you jazz nazis! When you're done, get with the

    > times.
    > > >
    > > > BR
    > > >

    > >
    > > Bill,
    > > Why do you even bother commenting on Jazz? You know NOTHING about what

    is
    > going
    > > on in Jazz. Tribal Tech etc. is really dated sounding fusion that should

    > have
    > > died 20 years ago. You have never heard of Cecil Taylor, Dave Douglas,

    > Tony
    > > Malaby, Mark Helias, George Garzone and a million other Jazz musicians

    who
    > are
    > > playing KILLER music that while is VERY new and refreshing, it still has

    a
    > > direct lineage to Bird, Trane etc. Sorry to tell you, but the European

    > guys do
    > > not have the Jazz thing down. Your sheltered little life of playing at

    Sea
    > World
    > > and wife beaters has implanted this nonsense in your head, but until you

    > know
    > > what is going on musically, don't comment. Your first sentence above has

    > to be
    > > THE most ignorant comment I have seen in Usenet in a LONG time. Then

    > again,
    > > there always have to me morons around so that those who know what they

    are
    > > talking about stand out. I have seen it ALL now. Fucking Bill Ray is now
    > > commenting on the state of American Jazz. Hey Bill, can you name a

    single
    > Jazz
    > > drummer who is playing today who is not being brown nosed by MD and

    other
    > such
    > > fish wraps?
    > >
    > > >
    > > > "Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote in message
    > > > news:Tt7Sa.3652$BD3.1798929@juliett.dax.net...
    > > > > Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
    > > > >
    > > > > US jazz in general has stagnated.
    > > > > US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music

    > that
    > > > > instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did

    > from
    > > > the
    > > > > beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces

    out
    > of
    > > > > it.
    > > > >
    > > > > To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of

    the
    > > > music
    > > > > known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
    > > > > There the music is constantly developing and shifting through

    > influences
    > > > of
    > > > > European classical music, folk music etc.
    > > > >
    > > > > Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
    > > > > Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often

    than
    > not
    > > > > get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a
    > > > fiercer,
    > > > > more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous

    > performer,
    > > > > while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
    > > > >
    > > > > I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
    > > > > I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play

    > classical
    > > > > music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
    > > > >
    > > > > Let the discussion begin.
    > > > >
    > > > > Frode Berg
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > "John Grabowski" <jgrab@earthlink.net> skrev i melding
    > > > > news:3F18E585.5040109@earthlink.net...
    > > > > > Zee Dodo wrote:
    > > > > > > "If there has to be electricity, I want it to come from me"
    > > > > > > - KEITH JARRETT
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Friends, let us consider the facts here:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > * In the entire history of jazz music, in which hundreds of

    > thousands,
    > > > > > > if not millions have played jazz or had a go at trying to, less

    > than
    > > > > > > 10 people --- yes, less than 0.0001% -- have succeeded in making

    > jazz
    > > > > > > music on electric instruments.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Are you including vibes players here?
    > > > > >
    > > > > > And have you checked in with your answering service lately?
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > >
    > > > > > John
    > > > > >
    > > > > > --
    > > > > > Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. --Don Corleone
    > > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > >

    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > > Robert Schuh
    > > "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
    > > intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
    > > the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
    > > the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
    > > - Nietzsche
    > >
    > > "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
    > >
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
  6. Pez Espada

    Pez Espada Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    "Kyrre Laastad" <kgeithus@SPAMOFFonline.no> wrote in message news:<yTxSa.7388$.
    >
    > I can upload an mp3 with Kornstad and his trio if you want to hear it. one
    > of my favourite drummers, Paal Nillsen-Love, and a fantasticly lyrical
    > bass-player, Mads Eilertsen is also on it.
    >
    >
    > it`s mindblowing!
    >
    > peace,
    > --Kyrre


    Please upload the music, I am very interested in modern jazz trios,
    and if you are saying that the counterbassist is good please I'd love
    to hear him.

    p.e.
  7. Robert Schuh

    Robert Schuh Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    Frode Berg, an obviously ignorant European moron wrote:

    Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:

    US jazz in general has stagnated.
    US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
    instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from the
    beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
    it.

    To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the music
    known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
    There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences of
    European classical music, folk music etc.


    This is THE most ludicrous comment I have ever read. Do we also go over to Europe
    to learn more about Football and Baseball too? What a fucking joke? Let's face it,
    Europe is an eternal land of whiteness. That will NEVER allow you to come close to
    the US in Jazz.


    Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
    Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
    get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a fiercer,
    more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
    while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"


    WOW! Who this fuck cares what a Scandinavian "Jazz" publication says? That may have
    been true in the 1950s, but that is an antiquated ideology that died decades ago.


    I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
    I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
    music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)

    Let the discussion begin.

    Frode Berg


    Frode,
    Why would you make a comment like this? What do you know about Jazz in the US? I
    hate to break the news to you, but a European claiming that Jazz is stagnant in the
    US is as ignorant as a European claiming that NFL football is stagnant in the US.
    Have you listened to Dave Douglas, Mark Helias, Mike Formanek, Tony Malaby,
    Medeski, Martin and Wood, Keith Jarrett, Ellery Eskelin, Jim Black etc., etc.? It
    is this type of ignorant sweeping generalization that just makes people laugh. Jazz
    is THE US art form. There are about a handful of European Jazz musicians who can
    play, the rest can't swing from a rope. I suggest you butch up a bit or go back to
    the old Euro love of the SS.


    --
    Robert Schuh
    "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
    intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
    the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
    the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
    - Nietzsche

    "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
  8. Frode Berg

    Frode Berg Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    Thank you for your friendly and insightful comments towards my post that
    was just a comment and invitation for serious discussion.
    As I stated, I do not agree in everything the media writes these days, and
    if you read my post, you'll understand that it was an American
    publication, NOT European. Heck, I even think it was the New York times
    for crying out loud. Anyway, my post was a follow up to an already
    ridicoulus (spelling) thread about the electric bass not being an
    instrument suited for jazz at all. Honestly, it was just as much poking
    nose at those old farts hanging on to the tradition and refusing to see
    jazz develope by including electric bass. I did not intend it to stand on
    it's own, and it was intended to provoke. You took the bait.

    BTW you replied to a post a couple of months back. There has already been a
    healthy thread with pros and cons.
    Actually your reply is the first hostile one.....oh well...

    Again, thanks for your ignorance.

    Frode

    "Robert Schuh" <rob@robschuh.com> skrev i melding
    news:3F3C8B99.5BC53CE1@robschuh.com...
    > Frode Berg, an obviously ignorant European moron wrote:
    >
    > Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
    >
    > US jazz in general has stagnated.
    > US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
    > instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from

    the
    > beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
    > it.
    >
    > To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the

    music
    > known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
    > There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences

    of
    > European classical music, folk music etc.
    >
    >
    > This is THE most ludicrous comment I have ever read. Do we also go over to

    Europe
    > to learn more about Football and Baseball too? What a fucking joke? Let's

    face it,
    > Europe is an eternal land of whiteness. That will NEVER allow you to come

    close to
    > the US in Jazz.
    >
    >
    > Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
    > Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
    > get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a

    fiercer,
    > more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
    > while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
    >
    >
    > WOW! Who this fuck cares what a Scandinavian "Jazz" publication says? That

    may have
    > been true in the 1950s, but that is an antiquated ideology that died

    decades ago.
    >
    >
    > I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
    > I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
    > music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
    >
    > Let the discussion begin.
    >
    > Frode Berg
    >
    >
    > Frode,
    > Why would you make a comment like this? What do you know about Jazz in the

    US? I
    > hate to break the news to you, but a European claiming that Jazz is

    stagnant in the
    > US is as ignorant as a European claiming that NFL football is stagnant in

    the US.
    > Have you listened to Dave Douglas, Mark Helias, Mike Formanek, Tony

    Malaby,
    > Medeski, Martin and Wood, Keith Jarrett, Ellery Eskelin, Jim Black etc.,

    etc.? It
    > is this type of ignorant sweeping generalization that just makes people

    laugh. Jazz
    > is THE US art form. There are about a handful of European Jazz musicians

    who can
    > play, the rest can't swing from a rope. I suggest you butch up a bit or go

    back to
    > the old Euro love of the SS.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Robert Schuh
    > "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
    > intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
    > the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
    > the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
    > - Nietzsche
    >
    > "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
    >
    >
  9. Frode Berg

    Frode Berg Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    BTW:

    What was that comment about Euro love of the SS?
    Are you referring to the Nazi Germans in the 30's-40's?

    In that case I could very well reply with some insults about your signature,
    your comparing jazz to American football (oh my god!) and your general
    hostility which looks to be on the same level as your charismatic president
    and government, let alone if the Terminator should become governor....

    But I won't.

    Have a nice day

    Frode


    "Robert Schuh" <rob@robschuh.com> skrev i melding
    news:3F3C8B99.5BC53CE1@robschuh.com...
    > Frode Berg, an obviously ignorant European moron wrote:
    >
    > Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
    >
    > US jazz in general has stagnated.
    > US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
    > instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from

    the
    > beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out of
    > it.
    >
    > To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the

    music
    > known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
    > There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences

    of
    > European classical music, folk music etc.
    >
    >
    > This is THE most ludicrous comment I have ever read. Do we also go over to

    Europe
    > to learn more about Football and Baseball too? What a fucking joke? Let's

    face it,
    > Europe is an eternal land of whiteness. That will NEVER allow you to come

    close to
    > the US in Jazz.
    >
    >
    > Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
    > Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than not
    > get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a

    fiercer,
    > more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
    > while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
    >
    >
    > WOW! Who this fuck cares what a Scandinavian "Jazz" publication says? That

    may have
    > been true in the 1950s, but that is an antiquated ideology that died

    decades ago.
    >
    >
    > I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
    > I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play classical
    > music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
    >
    > Let the discussion begin.
    >
    > Frode Berg
    >
    >
    > Frode,
    > Why would you make a comment like this? What do you know about Jazz in the

    US? I
    > hate to break the news to you, but a European claiming that Jazz is

    stagnant in the
    > US is as ignorant as a European claiming that NFL football is stagnant in

    the US.
    > Have you listened to Dave Douglas, Mark Helias, Mike Formanek, Tony

    Malaby,
    > Medeski, Martin and Wood, Keith Jarrett, Ellery Eskelin, Jim Black etc.,

    etc.? It
    > is this type of ignorant sweeping generalization that just makes people

    laugh. Jazz
    > is THE US art form. There are about a handful of European Jazz musicians

    who can
    > play, the rest can't swing from a rope. I suggest you butch up a bit or go

    back to
    > the old Euro love of the SS.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Robert Schuh
    > "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
    > intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
    > the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
    > the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
    > - Nietzsche
    >
    > "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
    >
    >
  10. conso_no

    conso_no Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    In article <eO3%a.6073$BD3.2531735@juliett.dax.net>,
    "Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> wrote:

    > Thank you for your friendly and insightful comments towards my post that
    > was just a comment and invitation for serious discussion.


    Frode---PLEASE do not make the mistake of assuming that all musicians in
    the States are like bob schue. He is an abberation....a spiteful,
    embittered little punk with the compassion of a toilet seat. Plus, he
    plays like a little girl. Pay no heed, and by all means continue to post.
  11. Abjorn

    Abjorn Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    Oh, Frode! Be proud! You have been called a moron by the Schuh - that means
    he can't get to you in any other way!

    Abjorn


    "Frode Berg" <frode@frodeberg.com> skrev i meddelandet
    news:eO3%a.6073$BD3.2531735@juliett.dax.net...
    > Thank you for your friendly and insightful comments towards my post that
    > was just a comment and invitation for serious discussion.
    > As I stated, I do not agree in everything the media writes these days, and
    > if you read my post, you'll understand that it was an American
    > publication, NOT European. Heck, I even think it was the New York times
    > for crying out loud. Anyway, my post was a follow up to an already
    > ridicoulus (spelling) thread about the electric bass not being an
    > instrument suited for jazz at all. Honestly, it was just as much poking
    > nose at those old farts hanging on to the tradition and refusing to see
    > jazz develope by including electric bass. I did not intend it to stand on
    > it's own, and it was intended to provoke. You took the bait.
    >
    > BTW you replied to a post a couple of months back. There has already been

    a
    > healthy thread with pros and cons.
    > Actually your reply is the first hostile one.....oh well...
    >
    > Again, thanks for your ignorance.
    >
    > Frode
    >
    > "Robert Schuh" <rob@robschuh.com> skrev i melding
    > news:3F3C8B99.5BC53CE1@robschuh.com...
    > > Frode Berg, an obviously ignorant European moron wrote:
    > >
    > > Here's another heatlhy thread to discuss:
    > >
    > > US jazz in general has stagnated.
    > > US jazz musicians are so obsessed with the tradition of their music that
    > > instead of developing it and letting it eveolve naturally as it did from

    > the
    > > beginning up until approx 1970,- they are now making museum pieces out

    of
    > > it.
    > >
    > > To hear groundbraking jazz these days (the further development of the

    > music
    > > known as jazz) one has to go to Europe.
    > > There the music is constantly developing and shifting through influences

    > of
    > > European classical music, folk music etc.
    > >
    > >
    > > This is THE most ludicrous comment I have ever read. Do we also go over

    to
    > Europe
    > > to learn more about Football and Baseball too? What a fucking joke?

    Let's
    > face it,
    > > Europe is an eternal land of whiteness. That will NEVER allow you to

    come
    > close to
    > > the US in Jazz.
    > >
    > >
    > > Seriously though, I read only Yesterday in a couple of reviews of a
    > > Scandinavian jazz album the notion that "In the US you more often than

    not
    > > get players competing to burn each other of the stage by playing a

    > fiercer,
    > > more aggressive, faster or whatever chorus than the previous performer,
    > > while in Europe the concern is the music, and not the ego"
    > >
    > >
    > > WOW! Who this fuck cares what a Scandinavian "Jazz" publication says?

    That
    > may have
    > > been true in the 1950s, but that is an antiquated ideology that died

    > decades ago.
    > >
    > >
    > > I do not agree in this, but some of it has some level of trouth.
    > > I am in Europe, and we also play jazz, just like americans play

    classical
    > > music and pop.(Beatles were the first pop band, so it's european)
    > >
    > > Let the discussion begin.
    > >
    > > Frode Berg
    > >
    > >
    > > Frode,
    > > Why would you make a comment like this? What do you know about Jazz in

    the
    > US? I
    > > hate to break the news to you, but a European claiming that Jazz is

    > stagnant in the
    > > US is as ignorant as a European claiming that NFL football is stagnant

    in
    > the US.
    > > Have you listened to Dave Douglas, Mark Helias, Mike Formanek, Tony

    > Malaby,
    > > Medeski, Martin and Wood, Keith Jarrett, Ellery Eskelin, Jim Black etc.,

    > etc.? It
    > > is this type of ignorant sweeping generalization that just makes people

    > laugh. Jazz
    > > is THE US art form. There are about a handful of European Jazz musicians

    > who can
    > > play, the rest can't swing from a rope. I suggest you butch up a bit or

    go
    > back to
    > > the old Euro love of the SS.
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > > Robert Schuh
    > > "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
    > > intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
    > > the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
    > > the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
    > > - Nietzsche
    > >
    > > "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
  12. JC Martin

    JC Martin Guest

    Re: US jazz stagnates was: Electricity In Jazz

    "Abjorn" <abjorn@telia.com> wrote in message
    news:Tmv%a.24410$dP1.53897@newsc.telia.net...
    > Oh, Frode! Be proud! You have been called a moron by the Schuh - that

    means
    > he can't get to you in any other way!



    Thanks for contributing Ulf. :-Z

    -JC

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