Recording signal through Mackie 1202 vlz pro

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by Luckyman, Aug 23, 2003.

  1. Luckyman

    Luckyman Guest

    Hello there,

    I wanted to ask if anyone would have any opinion about this...

    I'm recording in the following setup:

    - mainly vocals & acoustic guitar w/ AKG 414 and electric guitar, mic'ed w/
    SM57
    ->, through Mackie 1202 vlz Pro (with RNC in in the channel inserts) to
    -> Layla 20, using Cubase SX

    I connect the Mackie through main Out L & R to Layla. However I remember
    someone commenting on RAP that when recording through Mackie, I should
    bypass the Mackie eq, and use the channel inserts to send the signal from
    Mackie to Layla. The idea of it being that the eq of Mackie isn't of too
    good a quality.

    I *could* eq my tracks in SX (where I have the SX eq & numerous plugins)
    after recording.

    Do you guys have any opinions whether I should try to bypass the Mackie eq
    or not? In a way it would make sense, since I would want the signal to be
    recorded as "colourless" as possible, capturing only the "colour" that the
    mic and mic placement provides. In that case I would just send the signal
    from channel inserts to the RNC and from there on to Layla.

    Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!


    Kalle (from Finland)
  2. CS

    CS Guest

    Whatever sounds good to you, really ...
    Play with the mic placement to minimize
    the need of eq for a start.

    -CS
  3. PhilW

    PhilW Guest

    I think you'd get better quality sound by replacing the Mackie with a good
    mic preamp, because you're not really mixing a lot of input, just using the
    Mackie preamps (ignoring using its eq). Many people think highly of the
    Really Nice Preamp from FMR, and it has inserts for the RNC.
    --
    Phil Wilson
    "Luckyman" <luckymanRemove@TakeItAway.nic.fi> wrote in message
    news:HFR1b.637$jY6.580@reader1.news.jippii.net...
    > Hello there,
    >
    > I wanted to ask if anyone would have any opinion about this...
    >
    > I'm recording in the following setup:
    >
    > - mainly vocals & acoustic guitar w/ AKG 414 and electric guitar, mic'ed

    w/
    > SM57
    > ->, through Mackie 1202 vlz Pro (with RNC in in the channel inserts) to
    > -> Layla 20, using Cubase SX
    >
    > I connect the Mackie through main Out L & R to Layla. However I remember
    > someone commenting on RAP that when recording through Mackie, I should
    > bypass the Mackie eq, and use the channel inserts to send the signal from
    > Mackie to Layla. The idea of it being that the eq of Mackie isn't of too
    > good a quality.
    >
    > I *could* eq my tracks in SX (where I have the SX eq & numerous plugins)
    > after recording.
    >
    > Do you guys have any opinions whether I should try to bypass the Mackie eq
    > or not? In a way it would make sense, since I would want the signal to be
    > recorded as "colourless" as possible, capturing only the "colour" that the
    > mic and mic placement provides. In that case I would just send the signal
    > from channel inserts to the RNC and from there on to Layla.
    >
    > Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!
    >
    >
    > Kalle (from Finland)
    >
    >
  4. Carey Carlan

    Carey Carlan Guest

    "Luckyman" <luckymanRemove@TakeItAway.nic.fi> wrote in
    news:HFR1b.637$jY6.580@reader1.news.jippii.net:

    > I connect the Mackie through main Out L & R to Layla. However I
    > remember someone commenting on RAP that when recording through Mackie,
    > I should bypass the Mackie eq, and use the channel inserts to send the
    > signal from Mackie to Layla. The idea of it being that the eq of
    > Mackie isn't of too good a quality.


    Come out of the RNC directly into your Layla. The EQ on the Mackie (a) is
    not spectacular and (b) hasn't got a fraction of the flexibility of your
    software EQ's.

    Another reason to use the insert is to avoid the Mackie's summing buss.
    It's not ugly, but won't add anything to your recording.
  5. Luckyman

    Luckyman Guest

    Thanks for the answers guys, I'll think I use the inserts to connect to
    Layla then.

    Kalle

    "Carey Carlan" <gulfjoe@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:Xns93E0C06B91C81gulfjoehotmailcom@207.69.154.206...
    > "Luckyman" <luckymanRemove@TakeItAway.nic.fi> wrote in
    > news:HFR1b.637$jY6.580@reader1.news.jippii.net:
    >
    > > I connect the Mackie through main Out L & R to Layla. However I
    > > remember someone commenting on RAP that when recording through Mackie,
    > > I should bypass the Mackie eq, and use the channel inserts to send the
    > > signal from Mackie to Layla. The idea of it being that the eq of
    > > Mackie isn't of too good a quality.

    >
    > Come out of the RNC directly into your Layla. The EQ on the Mackie (a) is
    > not spectacular and (b) hasn't got a fraction of the flexibility of your
    > software EQ's.
    >
    > Another reason to use the insert is to avoid the Mackie's summing buss.
    > It's not ugly, but won't add anything to your recording.
  6. Arny Krueger

    Arny Krueger Guest

    "Luckyman" <luckymanRemove@TakeItAway.nic.fi> wrote in message
    news:eek:WZ1b.678$jY6.253@reader1.news.jippii.net...

    > Thanks for the answers guys, I'll think I use the inserts to connect to
    > Layla then.


    Doing this right for minimal hum and noise takes a special cable.

    Obtain a TRS-TRS cable that you can disassemble and re-wire. Take the end
    you are going to plug into the Mackie insert jack, and unsolder all the
    connections.

    (1) Trim and insulate the shield.

    (2) Solder the negative signal wire to the shield connection on the TRS
    connector.

    (3) Solder the positive signal wire to the tip and ring connections on the
    TRS connector.

    Ensure that the chassis of the Layla and the Mackie console have some kind
    of common ground, which usually happens by "electrical osmosis". The Lyala20
    chassis is grounded by the 3-wire power plug.
  7. Geoff Wood

    Geoff Wood Guest

    "PhilW" <pdjwilson@spamming.cox.net> wrote in message
    news:R8S1b.9464$Qy4.3064@fed1read05...
    > I think you'd get better quality sound by replacing the Mackie with a good
    > mic preamp, because you're not really mixing a lot of input, just using

    the
    > Mackie preamps (ignoring using its eq). Many people think highly of the
    > Really Nice Preamp from FMR, and it has inserts for the RNC.



    Many people think highly of the VLZ-Pro preamps too. I'd be more worried
    about room or mic nise ....


    geoff
  8. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    Luckyman <luckymanRemove@TakeItAway.nic.fi> wrote:
    >I connect the Mackie through main Out L & R to Layla. However I remember
    >someone commenting on RAP that when recording through Mackie, I should
    >bypass the Mackie eq, and use the channel inserts to send the signal from
    >Mackie to Layla. The idea of it being that the eq of Mackie isn't of too
    >good a quality.


    Yes, this also bypasses the routing stuff as well, which is also good.

    >I *could* eq my tracks in SX (where I have the SX eq & numerous plugins)
    >after recording.


    How much EQ do you use anyway?

    >Do you guys have any opinions whether I should try to bypass the Mackie eq
    >or not? In a way it would make sense, since I would want the signal to be
    >recorded as "colourless" as possible, capturing only the "colour" that the
    >mic and mic placement provides. In that case I would just send the signal
    >from channel inserts to the RNC and from there on to Layla.


    Of course you should TRY it! It'll only take ten minutes to try, and either
    you'll like working that way or you won't.
    --scott


    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  9. Ethan Winer

    Ethan Winer Guest

    Kalle,

    You should record from the direct preamp output when possible. Not that the
    Mackie's mixer section is lousy, because it's not. But when using ANY gear
    it's best to go through the fewest possible circuits.

    > I *could* eq my tracks in SX (where I have the SX eq & numerous plugins)

    after recording. <

    It's always better to defer EQ and other processing if you can. If you EQ or
    compress and later don't like it, it's difficult to reverse.

    --Ethan
  10. Luckyman

    Luckyman Guest

    Hi again,

    > >I *could* eq my tracks in SX (where I have the SX eq & numerous plugins)
    > >after recording.

    >
    > How much EQ do you use anyway?


    Well I use eq very rarely in the situation when I record. I try to solve any
    eq problem with mic positioning and changing the signal at the source.
    However, I do eq quite a bit at the mixing stage.

    > Of course you should TRY it! It'll only take ten minutes to try, and

    either
    > you'll like working that way or you won't.
    > --scott


    I know, the old saying "trust your ears". The problem is not so much the
    physical routing (wiring) but more of an issue of which way is better
    soundquality-wise. But since I have don't have decades of recording
    experience (yet), I now and then sadly notice at the mixdown stage that I
    have made bad decicions when recording the tracks. For example, I sometimes
    have problems with using the compressor the best effective way, or I fail to
    hear what is dynamic and what's not. But I'm learning, and I have fun doing
    it :)

    I was was looking for some hard, techical facts that I could base my
    decicion upon. Which I got, and I thank you for that. Gotta go now, my
    patchbay is crying out to re-arrange him. :)


    Regards, Kalle
  11. "Luckyman" <luckymanRemove@TakeItAway.nic.fi> wrote in message news:<HFR1b.637$jY6.580@reader1.news.jippii.net>...
    > Hello there,
    >
    > I wanted to ask if anyone would have any opinion about this...
    >
    > I'm recording in the following setup:
    >
    > - mainly vocals & acoustic guitar w/ AKG 414 and electric guitar, mic'ed w/
    > SM57
    > ->, through Mackie 1202 vlz Pro (with RNC in in the channel inserts) to
    > -> Layla 20, using Cubase SX
    >


    If I use my 1202 VLZ at all, I use the channel insert on the preamp direct to
    my sound card. I stopped using the mix busses on the 1202 a long time ago.
    Bad sounding mixer.

    DaveT
  12. Sugarite

    Sugarite Guest

    > Doing this right for minimal hum and noise takes a special cable.
    >
    > Obtain a TRS-TRS cable that you can disassemble and re-wire. Take the end
    > you are going to plug into the Mackie insert jack, and unsolder all the
    > connections.
    >
    > (1) Trim and insulate the shield.
    >
    > (2) Solder the negative signal wire to the shield connection on the TRS
    > connector.
    >
    > (3) Solder the positive signal wire to the tip and ring connections on the
    > TRS connector.


    Why not just use standard 1/4" unbalanced patchcord and only insert into the
    Mackie insert half-way (1st 'notch')? It's the coupling of the ground and
    return connecitons you're trying to avoid right? Mackie inserts accomplish
    exactly that with half-insertion, and the RNC is unbalanced.
  13. Sugarite

    Sugarite Guest

    > I'm recording in the following setup:
    >
    > - mainly vocals & acoustic guitar w/ AKG 414 and electric guitar, mic'ed

    w/
    > SM57
    > ->, through Mackie 1202 vlz Pro (with RNC in in the channel inserts) to
    > -> Layla 20, using Cubase SX
    >
    > I connect the Mackie through main Out L & R to Layla. However I remember
    > someone commenting on RAP that when recording through Mackie, I should
    > bypass the Mackie eq, and use the channel inserts to send the signal from
    > Mackie to Layla. The idea of it being that the eq of Mackie isn't of too
    > good a quality.
    >
    > I *could* eq my tracks in SX (where I have the SX eq & numerous plugins)
    > after recording.


    For what you're doing I'd sell the Mackie and the RNC and get a decent dual
    preamp, like a Presonus MP20.
  14. Arny Krueger

    Arny Krueger Guest

    "Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message
    news:wZw2b.11$Pa1.4321@read1.cgocable.net

    >> Doing this right for minimal hum and noise takes a special cable.


    >> Obtain a TRS-TRS cable that you can disassemble and re-wire. Take
    >> the end you are going to plug into the Mackie insert jack, and
    >> unsolder all the connections.


    >> (1) Trim and insulate the shield.


    >> (2) Solder the negative signal wire to the shield connection on the
    >> TRS connector.


    >> (3) Solder the positive signal wire to the tip and ring connections
    >> on the TRS connector.


    > Why not just use standard 1/4" unbalanced patchcord and only insert
    > into the Mackie insert half-way (1st 'notch')?


    (1) Stability of having jacks fully seated
    (2) Exploit benefits of balanced input

    > It's the coupling of
    > the ground and return connecitons you're trying to avoid right?


    No.

    > Mackie inserts accomplish exactly that with half-insertion, and the
    > RNC is unbalanced.


    Right.

    This was discussed in detail a few weeks ago in this post:

    http://www.google.com/groups?selm=NpqdnY0VTa4Gqa-iU-KYgw@comcast.com
  15. Two things. One, a halfway insertion can easily be unstable or pulled out.
    And secondly, if you want to have absolute ground correct, it's best to use
    all of a jack, because it's just simply made to have a plug fully inserted.
    Connections, cables, etc., can all be bad enough as it is, but you just ask
    for trouble by using a half insert. Nothing like looking down and seeing
    one missing track because an insert shorted out. If one records from the
    insert points it makes sense to spend a little time and make cables that
    will work better. I love things that require minimum investment of time and
    materials and saves you tons of work later.

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
    See how far $20 really goes.




    "Sugarite" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message
    news:wZw2b.11$Pa1.4321@read1.cgocable.net...
    > > Doing this right for minimal hum and noise takes a special cable.
    > >
    > > Obtain a TRS-TRS cable that you can disassemble and re-wire. Take the

    end
    > > you are going to plug into the Mackie insert jack, and unsolder all the
    > > connections.
    > >
    > > (1) Trim and insulate the shield.
    > >
    > > (2) Solder the negative signal wire to the shield connection on the TRS
    > > connector.
    > >
    > > (3) Solder the positive signal wire to the tip and ring connections on

    the
    > > TRS connector.

    >
    > Why not just use standard 1/4" unbalanced patchcord and only insert into

    the
    > Mackie insert half-way (1st 'notch')? It's the coupling of the ground and
    > return connecitons you're trying to avoid right? Mackie inserts

    accomplish
    > exactly that with half-insertion, and the RNC is unbalanced.
    >
    >
  16. "Roger W. Norman" <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote in message
    > Two things. One, a halfway insertion can easily be unstable or pulled

    out.
    > And secondly, if you want to have absolute ground correct, it's best to

    use
    > all of a jack, because it's just simply made to have a plug fully

    inserted.
    > Connections, cables, etc., can all be bad enough as it is, but you just

    ask
    > for trouble by using a half insert. Nothing like looking down and seeing
    > one missing track because an insert shorted out.


    I recorded a live performance at church this way once. When the preacher
    got up to speak I couldn't figure out where that distortion was coming from.
    Finally, I wiggled the insert cable and crystal clear.

    I just saved those instructions for later.
  17. Why? If you got it right in the tracking, unless you record a lot of two
    Les Paul guitar bands, the eq should still be right when you do playback.
    What is the marked propensity to grab EQ all the time?

    I can understand taking all the lows out of a flute or all the highs out of
    a kick, but other than simply saving a little headroom, I don't find much
    use for EQ if I got the tracks right. Not that it happens all that often!
    <g>

    --


    Roger W. Norman
    SirMusic Studio
    Purchase your copy of the Fifth of RAP CD set at www.recaudiopro.net.
    See how far $20 really goes.




    "Luckyman" <luckymanRemove@TakeItAway.nic.fi> wrote in message
    news:Wo42b.812$jY6.141@reader1.news.jippii.net...
    > Hi again,
    >
    > > >I *could* eq my tracks in SX (where I have the SX eq & numerous

    plugins)
    > > >after recording.

    > >
    > > How much EQ do you use anyway?

    >
    > Well I use eq very rarely in the situation when I record. I try to solve

    any
    > eq problem with mic positioning and changing the signal at the source.
    > However, I do eq quite a bit at the mixing stage.
    >
    > > Of course you should TRY it! It'll only take ten minutes to try, and

    > either
    > > you'll like working that way or you won't.
    > > --scott

    >
    > I know, the old saying "trust your ears". The problem is not so much the
    > physical routing (wiring) but more of an issue of which way is better
    > soundquality-wise. But since I have don't have decades of recording
    > experience (yet), I now and then sadly notice at the mixdown stage that I
    > have made bad decicions when recording the tracks. For example, I

    sometimes
    > have problems with using the compressor the best effective way, or I fail

    to
    > hear what is dynamic and what's not. But I'm learning, and I have fun

    doing
    > it :)
    >
    > I was was looking for some hard, techical facts that I could base my
    > decicion upon. Which I got, and I thank you for that. Gotta go now, my
    > patchbay is crying out to re-arrange him. :)
    >
    >
    > Regards, Kalle
    >
    >
  18. Arny Krueger

    Arny Krueger Guest

    "Roger W. Norman" <rnorman@starpower.net> wrote in message
    news:bifk87$1tk$1@bob.news.rcn.net

    > Two things. One, a halfway insertion can easily be unstable or
    > pulled out.


    And that's all you need in a multichannel environment - more unstable
    hardware. NOT!

    >And secondly, if you want to have absolute ground
    > correct, it's best to use all of a jack, because it's just simply
    > made to have a plug fully inserted. Connections, cables, etc., can
    > all be bad enough as it is, but you just ask for trouble by using a
    > half insert.


    Agreed. Asking for trouble in a production environment is one request that
    you can almost guarantee being positively responded to.

    >Nothing like looking down and seeing one missing track
    > because an insert shorted out.


    Inserts are generally out of sight when you are looking at the controls of a
    console.

    > If one records from the insert points
    > it makes sense to spend a little time and make cables that will work
    > better. I love things that require minimum investment of time and
    > materials and saves you tons of work later.


    Agreed. I've always looked at the half-insert trick as just that, a trick
    that should convince less-experienced persons of the viability of tapping
    insert points (or not). I think that once a person sees the half-insert
    trick work, they should run right out and acquire the hardware to do it
    right.

    For example, that's how I read the Ethan Winer article that mentions the
    half-insert trick. He tells people how to give the concept a spin with a
    half-inserted plug, and then he tells them how to do it with
    properly-installed (i.e., fully inserted) jacks.
  19. Sugarite

    Sugarite Guest

    > Two things. One, a halfway insertion can easily be unstable or pulled
    out.

    If you're that cliumsy, how do you expect to do a reasonable solder joint on
    the custom cable then?

    > And secondly, if you want to have absolute ground correct,


    No such animal exists...

    > it's best to use
    > all of a jack, because it's just simply made to have a plug fully

    inserted.

    Mackie's are simply made to accommodate half-insertion, that first
    connection pin is rather stiff for a reason, and the ground contact pressure
    is not significantly less than when fully inserted, rtfm. It's one of the
    few aspects that are done right on a Mackie.

    > Connections, cables, etc., can all be bad enough as it is, but you just

    ask
    > for trouble by using a half insert. Nothing like looking down and seeing
    > one missing track because an insert shorted out.


    The guy in question is recording one track at a time, surely he will notice
    if it's popped out or not connecting well, and then consider pulling out the
    soldering gun.

    > If one records from the
    > insert points it makes sense to spend a little time and make cables that
    > will work better. I love things that require minimum investment of time

    and
    > materials and saves you tons of work later.


    Like buying a mixer specifically designed for half-insertion...

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