RENDERING (vs. recording) MIDI to WAV? HELP!

Discussion in 'comp.music.midi' started by SteveS012, Jun 16, 2003.

  1. SteveS012

    SteveS012 Guest

    O.K., I am using Cakewalk SONAR 2.2 with Edirol VSC and Hypercanvas as DXi
    plugins. I would ASSUME that SONAR would be advanced enough to be able to
    RENDER/CONVERT MIDI files directly to WAV using the DX Instruments, completely
    digitally, without going through my cruddy consumer grade sound card. But
    everytime I try the Bounce to Track or Export commands, it starts doing a
    "midxdown" and "converting:" in what appears to be realtime, only guiving me
    the choice to use my sound card's "source bus". WHAT is the deal here?!
    I don;t want to use high proquality wavetable sound and then have it run
    through my D/A and A/D converters on my cheap and noisy $20 sound card....now
    come on! Is that what is happening when it says it is using my sound card's
    "source bus" and appears to be "playing" in real time as it "renders"? The
    stand alone VSC seems to render all digitally, which is nice, but I need to use
    Hypercanvas and Orchestral, etc. There are no controls or info in the manuals
    about rendering directly to WAV digitally, although they claim tro be able to
    render 96K/24 bit WAV. I need digital rendering, not recording using my sound
    card! Is this what is happening? Isn't there a way to do all digital rendering
    to WAV using a DXi SoftSynth like Hypercanvas?
  2. On 16 Jun 2003 08:41:26 GMT, steves012@aol.com (SteveS012) wrote:

    >O.K., I am using Cakewalk SONAR 2.2 with Edirol VSC and Hypercanvas as DXi
    >plugins. I would ASSUME that SONAR would be advanced enough to be able to
    >RENDER/CONVERT MIDI files directly to WAV using the DX Instruments, completely
    >digitally, without going through my cruddy consumer grade sound card. But
    >everytime I try the Bounce to Track or Export commands, it starts doing a
    >"midxdown" and "converting:" in what appears to be realtime, only guiving me
    >the choice to use my sound card's "source bus". WHAT is the deal here?!
    >I don;t want to use high proquality wavetable sound and then have it run
    >through my D/A and A/D converters on my cheap and noisy $20 sound card....now
    >come on! Is that what is happening when it says it is using my sound card's
    >"source bus" and appears to be "playing" in real time as it "renders"? The
    >stand alone VSC seems to render all digitally, which is nice, but I need to use
    >Hypercanvas and Orchestral, etc. There are no controls or info in the manuals
    >about rendering directly to WAV digitally, although they claim tro be able to
    >render 96K/24 bit WAV. I need digital rendering, not recording using my sound
    >card! Is this what is happening? Isn't there a way to do all digital rendering
    >to WAV using a DXi SoftSynth like Hypercanvas?


    Yes. Use a virtual audio device, which lets you direct Sonar's
    audio output internally to an audio input. OTOH, a better sound card
    would also allow you to route digital wave output to input for
    recording entirely in the digital domain, never going through D/A
    conversion (the SB Live/Audigy will do that, among others).

    Rendering/converting only works when all the programs are designed
    to operate smoothly in that fashion. Sonar -- and other sequencers --
    are designed to work with MIDI devices which can't simply render
    output.
    --
    *-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
    ** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
    *Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
  3. SteveS012

    SteveS012 Guest

    > Yes. Use a virtual audio device, which lets you direct Sonar's
    >audio output internally to an audio input. OTOH, a better sound card
    >would also allow you to route digital wave output to input for
    >recording entirely in the digital domain, never going through D/A
    >conversion (the SB Live/Audigy will do that, among others).


    How would I use a virtual sound device? Would that keep it completely digital?
    The oly software that I know that has rendering capability is WAVMaker, which
    processes WAV's digitally using MIDI instructions from a massive wavetable. It
    doesn't work very well, but the idea behind it is great. I was hoping I would
    be able to do the same with Edirol Hypercanvas SoftSynth. f there is a specific
    way to do this without buying a new sound card please let me know!
  4. On 17 Jun 2003 00:23:37 GMT, steves012@aol.com (SteveS012) wrote:

    >> Yes. Use a virtual audio device, which lets you direct Sonar's
    >>audio output internally to an audio input. OTOH, a better sound card
    >>would also allow you to route digital wave output to input for
    >>recording entirely in the digital domain, never going through D/A
    >>conversion (the SB Live/Audigy will do that, among others).

    >
    >How would I use a virtual sound device? Would that keep it completely digital?
    >The oly software that I know that has rendering capability is WAVMaker, which
    >processes WAV's digitally using MIDI instructions from a massive wavetable. It
    >doesn't work very well, but the idea behind it is great. I was hoping I would
    >be able to do the same with Edirol Hypercanvas SoftSynth. f there is a specific
    >way to do this without buying a new sound card please let me know!


    Total Recorder, Virtual Audio Cable, and other applications will do
    the trick of allowing you to record wave audio output without using
    your sound card.



    --
    *-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
    ** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
    *Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
  5. Old Nick

    Old Nick Guest

    On 16 Jun 2003 08:41:26 GMT, steves012@aol.com (SteveS012) wrote
    something
    .......and in reply I say!:

    if you play the midi and record the result as a wave you are getting
    everything in the digital domain one 95% of modern cards you should
    only get da ad if you go using wires out and back in.

    dx instruments are not deisgned to render/convert midi to wav they are
    designed to play them its not sonar's fault.

    >O.K., I am using Cakewalk SONAR 2.2 with Edirol VSC and Hypercanvas as DXi
    >plugins. I would ASSUME that SONAR would be advanced enough to be able to
    >RENDER/CONVERT MIDI files directly to WAV using the DX Instruments, completely
    >digitally, without going through my cruddy consumer grade sound card. But
    >everytime I try the Bounce to Track or Export commands, it starts doing a
    >"midxdown" and "converting:" in what appears to be realtime, only guiving me
    >the choice to use my sound card's "source bus". WHAT is the deal here?!
    >I don;t want to use high proquality wavetable sound and then have it run
    >through my D/A and A/D converters on my cheap and noisy $20 sound card....now
    >come on! Is that what is happening when it says it is using my sound card's
    >"source bus" and appears to be "playing" in real time as it "renders"? The
    >stand alone VSC seems to render all digitally, which is nice, but I need to use
    >Hypercanvas and Orchestral, etc. There are no controls or info in the manuals
    >about rendering directly to WAV digitally, although they claim tro be able to
    >render 96K/24 bit WAV. I need digital rendering, not recording using my sound
    >card! Is this what is happening? Isn't there a way to do all digital rendering
    >to WAV using a DXi SoftSynth like Hypercanvas?


    ******************************************************************************************
    Huh! Old age!. You may hate it, but let me tell you, you can't get by for long without it!

    Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music
    Please remove ns from my header address to reply via email
    !!
    <")
    _/ )
    ( )
    _//- \__/
  6. SteveS012

    SteveS012 Guest

    >if you play the midi and record the result as a wave you are getting
    >everything in the digital domain one 95% of modern cards you should
    >only get da ad if you go using wires out and back in.
    >
    >dx instruments are not deisgned to render/convert midi to wav they are
    >designed to play them its not sonar's fault.


    But if the digital data is "played" as audio data, isn't it being converted to
    analog? When I see recording levels displayed and it appears to be playing in
    real time, I can;t help but think it is being converted to analog. INTERNALLY,
    but still converted to analog. Maybe it would help if I understood what the
    "source bus" on my sound card was. Cakewalk SONAR says it is using the "source
    bus" on my sound card when converting to WAV. Anyone know?
  7. On 17 Jun 2003 23:25:27 GMT, steves012@aol.com (SteveS012) wrote:

    >>if you play the midi and record the result as a wave you are getting
    >>everything in the digital domain one 95% of modern cards you should
    >>only get da ad if you go using wires out and back in.
    >>
    >>dx instruments are not deisgned to render/convert midi to wav they are
    >>designed to play them its not sonar's fault.

    >
    >But if the digital data is "played" as audio data, isn't it being converted to
    >analog? When I see recording levels displayed and it appears to be playing in
    >real time, I can;t help but think it is being converted to analog. INTERNALLY,
    >but still converted to analog. Maybe it would help if I understood what the
    >"source bus" on my sound card was. Cakewalk SONAR says it is using the "source
    >bus" on my sound card when converting to WAV. Anyone know?


    It all depends on the soundcard. A number of modern cards,
    including many built in on motherboards, have a digital input and
    output.

    The source bus, in general, is the recording mixer selection for
    your soundcard. It can be any other input device available --
    Cakewalk will show all audio input devices available.

    The popular SB Live/Audigy have a "What You Hear" selection, and
    many others have a "Stereo Mix" or "Wave Output". As the cards are
    digital mixers internally, not analog, those recording sources will be
    digital, never passing through to analog.

    You need to check your sound card specs out of course. Most SB
    16/Soundblaster Pro 16 bit ISA era cards do not have digital inputs at
    all, nor a digital mixer.

    Purely software audio devices can allow you to record software
    synths, no matter what sound card you use.
    --
    *-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
    ** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
    *Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
  8. MS

    MS Guest

    "SteveS012" <steves012@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:20030616044126.06973.00001095@mb-m17.aol.com...
    > O.K., I am using Cakewalk SONAR 2.2 with Edirol VSC and Hypercanvas as DXi
    > plugins. I would ASSUME that SONAR would be advanced enough to be able to
    > RENDER/CONVERT MIDI files directly to WAV using the DX Instruments,

    completely
    > digitally, without going through my cruddy consumer grade sound card.


    Don't use Sonar for it. Use VSC's own music player program--it will convert
    MIDI files directly to .wav using the VSC sounds, not in real time, not
    using your sound card.
  9. On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 06:57:17 -0700, " MS"
    <ms@nospam.com> wrote:

    >
    >"SteveS012" <steves012@aol.com> wrote in message
    >news:20030616044126.06973.00001095@mb-m17.aol.com...
    >> O.K., I am using Cakewalk SONAR 2.2 with Edirol VSC and Hypercanvas as DXi
    >> plugins. I would ASSUME that SONAR would be advanced enough to be able to
    >> RENDER/CONVERT MIDI files directly to WAV using the DX Instruments,

    >completely
    >> digitally, without going through my cruddy consumer grade sound card.

    >
    >Don't use Sonar for it. Use VSC's own music player program--it will convert
    >MIDI files directly to .wav using the VSC sounds, not in real time, not
    >using your sound card.


    If all you are using is VSC, the standalone app will do it. But
    Hypercanvas has no standalone app, so you must use the host program in
    order to record its output.

    In any case, if you are going to use more than one synth, you're
    going to need to render the output as audio. For external hardware
    and soundcard hardware synths, that always means recording. So it is
    good to know how to get the best quality recording possible. If your
    synth has digital out, there is always some way to record it
    digitally.

    Maybe you'll need a different sound card to do it. For software
    synths, you can always use a software audio device to record the
    output. Using the sound card avoids having to cope with them, but
    OTOH they really aren't that hard to figure out.

    Sonar's help and manual are pretty much set up for recording as the
    solution to render audio from MIDI. It explains how to do it, but
    presumes that your sound card can be set up easily to do the job. If
    it cannot, they don't actively support using others, or other software
    to do the job. But the Cakewalk site is full of suggestions on how to
    work around these, plus of course the newserver news.cakewalk.com is
    great for getting help with their programs.

    VSC and those other apps which allow rendering via the synth program
    itself are simpler to use. Also faster, because the app can run
    faster than real time, if the CPU can handle it. But you have to set
    up the entire MIDI file for it, or at least, do all the parts intended
    for the VSC synth as a MIDI file, saved outside Sonar (or whatever
    host app you use).


    --
    *-__Jeffery Jones__________| *Starfire* |____________________-*
    ** Muskego WI Access Channel 14/25 <http://www.execpc.com/~jeffsj/mach7/>
    *Starfire Design Studio* <http://www.starfiredesign.com/>
  10. Old Nick

    Old Nick Guest

    On 17 Jun 2003 23:25:27 GMT, steves012@aol.com (SteveS012) wrote
    something
    .......and in reply I say!:

    From here on it's up to your card, but just because the display shows
    levels and you are listening does not mean that what is being
    displayed is analogue at all. What you _hear_ is analogue, digital
    inputs and outputs notwithstanding. But what you see is digital.

    For instance if you _record_ a sound, you see a display of that sound
    on your screen, but it has been digitised before you see it. Use the
    Win Sound recorder or whatever, and zoom way way in. You will see the
    steps. So your PC can display the digital version of the sound.

    From the point of view of the PC, what you record is the "original",
    digital signal. What you _hear_ is the converted analogue.

    It may well be that some cards are not like this. But I would think
    it's actually cheaper and easier to produce digital mixing/recording
    than analogue. They should be rare.

    The source bus is what you set it to. AFAIK. The Source Bus simply
    accepts your choice of source. In my opinion, the chances are high
    that if you choose Wave as your source, then you will get a digital
    rendition. I am pretty sure that all softsynths will use the Wave
    Source as their output.

    If on the other hadn you use and external synth, then you will have to
    come through the AD process to get into the PC.

    >But if the digital data is "played" as audio data, isn't it being converted to
    >analog? When I see recording levels displayed and it appears to be playing in
    >real time, I can;t help but think it is being converted to analog. INTERNALLY,
    >but still converted to analog. Maybe it would help if I understood what the
    >"source bus" on my sound card was. Cakewalk SONAR says it is using the "source
    >bus" on my sound card when converting to WAV. Anyone know?


    ******************************************************************************************
    Huh! Old age!. You may hate it, but let me tell you, you can't get by for long without it!

    Nick White --- HEAD:Hertz Music
    Please remove ns from my header address to reply via email
    !!
    <")
    _/ )
    ( )
    _//- \__/
  11. Note Jam

    Note Jam Guest

    Only program I know of that can directly render a wav file from a midi,
    according to what midi instruments are set, is the virtual sound canvas soft
    synth available from www.pgmusic.com, but you must buy something else, to
    qualify to buy VSC.

    It can also play midis, act like a jukebox for midis, and has about 900
    instruments.

    You can also use its intruments for playing output from other midi programs.
  12. Try my free tool SynthFont for this purpose. You can download the
    latest version (0.87) at www.synthfont.com. It has some nice features
    (IMHO) and makes it rather easy to try out different combinations of
    SoundFonts.

    Kenneth

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