"round" 80 wire IDE cables instead of ribbon style

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by xy, Aug 17, 2003.

  1. xy

    xy Guest

    anybody using these yet?:
    http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG

    i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
    typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.

    i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
    has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
    better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
    using.

    any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?
  2. Don Cooper

    Don Cooper Guest

    xy wrote:
    >
    > anybody using these yet?:



    They might work well with those egg shaped speakers.


    Don
  3. Pat Janes

    Pat Janes Guest

    In article <6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.com>,
    genericaudioperson@hotmail.com (xy) wrote:

    > i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
    > typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.


    The same. The only advantage is that in a cluttered case with all of the
    drive bays occupied you'll probably get better airflow.
  4. axtogrind

    axtogrind Guest

    Using rounded cables for a LONG time now. [First rounding my own 40's, then
    later the 80's, even though if you don't know what you're doing on the 80's
    you can more easily screw things up.]

    Shielding with respect to IDE traffic / errors, or with respect to audio
    noise?

    atg

    "xy" <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.com...
    > anybody using these yet?:
    > http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
    >
    > i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
    > typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
    >
    > i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
    > has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
    > better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
    > using.
    >
    > any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?
  5. area242

    area242 Guest

    I use nothing but rounded cables...I like the increase in air flow, and I
    can work on my system easier when upgrading.

    "xy" <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.com...
    > anybody using these yet?:
    > http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
    >
    > i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
    > typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
    >
    > i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
    > has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
    > better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
    > using.
    >
    > any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?
  6. John L Rice

    John L Rice Guest

    I used them in my new system and they are really nice to work with. I
    haven't noticed any problems using them.

    John L Rice
    Drummer@ImJohn.com

    "xy" <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.com...
    > anybody using these yet?:
    > http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
    >
    > i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
    > typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
    >
    > i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
    > has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
    > better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
    > using.
    >
    > any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?
  7. nuke

    nuke Guest

    << any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize? >><BR><BR>


    I've looked at them on a scope. I do this stuff for a living.

    I put them all in the trash, where they belong.


    --
    Dr. Nuketopia
    Sorry, no e-Mail.
    Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.
  8. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    xy <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote:
    >anybody using these yet?:
    >http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
    >
    >i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
    >typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
    >
    >i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
    >has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
    >better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
    >using.


    I use SCSI cables like this all the time, which are basically ribbon
    cables wrapped up in a roll with an outer shield around it. It's still
    a ribbon cable inside. I'd bet these are the same.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  9. reddred

    reddred Guest

    "xy" <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.com...
    > anybody using these yet?:
    > http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
    >
    > i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
    > typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
    >
    > i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
    > has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
    > better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
    > using.
    >
    > any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?


    They are exactly the same, except they are round and harder to fold. It is a
    nice gimmick to find large profit where before there was next to none. Like
    a neon-lit, 'aquarium' case. They are the monster cables for hard drives,
    and the 'air flow' claim, while technically true, makes not one iota of
    difference. Just say no.

    jb
  10. In article <6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.com>, xy wrote:
    > anybody using these yet?:
    > http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
    >
    > i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
    > typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
    >
    > i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
    > has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
    > better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
    > using.
    >
    > any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?


    The IDE specifications are very exacting when it comes to electrical
    properties of cables, including lengths and ground wire arrangements.
    Cables that don't meet these specs cause problems.

    There are a lot of variables that affect whether or not you'll see data
    problems. But I've seen lots of problems due to out of spec cables. I
    always keep away.

    --
    Ross Vandegrift
    ross@willow.seitz.com

    A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon.
    He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water Cannon.
    He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
    He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
    He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
    He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
    Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them.
  11. John L Rice

    John L Rice Guest

    "nuke" <larrysb@aol.commode> wrote in message
    news:20030817070210.02716.00000073@mb-m23.aol.com...
    > << any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize? >><BR><BR>
    >
    >
    > I've looked at them on a scope. I do this stuff for a living.
    >
    > I put them all in the trash, where they belong.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Dr. Nuketopia
    > Sorry, no e-Mail.
    > Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.


    Could you tell us a little bit about what problems you were seeing?

    Thanks.

    John L Rice
    Drummer@ImJohn.com
  12. ###

    packpack

    On 16 Aug 2003 19:08:03 -0700, genericaudioperson@hotmail.com (xy)
    wrote:

    >anybody using these yet?:
    >http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
    >
    >i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
    >typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
    >
    >i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
    >has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
    >better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
    >using.
    >
    >any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?

  13. >Could you tell us a little bit about what problems you were seeing?


    Yes please.
    This is the first report I have seen that the round cables were
    inferior.
  14. John L Rice

    John L Rice Guest

    "reddred" <opaloka@yahoo.com> wrote in message
    news:--WcnaTIws2u192iU-KYuQ@rockbridge.net...
    >
    > "xy" <genericaudioperson@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    > news:6c38b64b.0308161808.378b39e4@posting.google.com...
    > > anybody using these yet?:
    > > http://www.newegg.com/app/Showimage.asp?image=12-105-002-01.JPG
    > >
    > > i'm wondering if the shielding is better/same/worse compared to
    > > typical ribbon cables to hook up ide (hard drives) inside computers.
    > >
    > > i like the idea of the old flat style 80 wire, because each live wire
    > > has a dummy wire right next to it neatly laid out. but maybe it's
    > > better to have them all bundled up in the goofy tube thing they are
    > > using.
    > >
    > > any signal-transmission gurus care to hypothesize?

    >
    > They are exactly the same, except they are round and harder to fold. It is

    a
    > nice gimmick to find large profit where before there was next to none.

    Like
    > a neon-lit, 'aquarium' case. They are the monster cables for hard drives,
    > and the 'air flow' claim, while technically true, makes not one iota of
    > difference. Just say no.
    >
    > jb
    >




    I think they are worth the $3 to $5 apiece ( that is if you happen to have
    that much money to spend on something you don't 'really' need )

    I think it makes a new install go easier as well as occational upgrades /
    troubleshooting easier since it's easier to see inside the computer. They
    are easier to route than flat cables.

    It also looks better to me.

    http://www.imjohn.com/misc/CurrentDawView1.gif
    http://www.imjohn.com/misc/CurrentDawView2.gif

    John L Rice
    Drummer@ImJohn.com
  15. nuke

    nuke Guest

    << Could you tell us a little bit about what problems you were seeing?

    Thanks.

    John L Rice
    Drummer@ImJohn.com >><BR><BR>


    Sure.

    Ultra ATA transfers work like this:

    Sender has a strobe signal and 16 lines of data. The data is latched on the
    rising and falling edges of the strobe signal. When the strobe edges at the
    receiver side, the data is latched. If the data lines don't have enough
    settling time before the strobe edge, you risk innaccurate transfer. As UATA
    speeds increase, the cycle times of the clock get a lot shorter, down to 15ns
    in the case of ATA/133 (mode 6).

    The problem with many of the round (or "shredded" or other non-conventional
    shape) is the uniformity of the signals. See if you alter the impedance of the
    cable, this introduces a phase shift or time delay. If you mess up the ribbon,
    the skew between the different data lines becomes non-uniform in relation to
    each other and the strobe signal. This can cause 1 or more bit-lanes to become
    prone to error.

    Fortunately, ATA is actually pretty robust in many ways and it won't screw up
    most of the time if just one thing like cable skew is happening. There's even a
    CRC check that's performed on every data transfer, so a messed up transfer gets
    re-sent. Even if you are getting this, you probably won't notice unless you
    have your system instrumented to detect it. Most better vendors carefully tune
    their series R values and PWB traces to minimize skew and impedance changes,
    both at the drive and host.

    If you mix the right combination of weird cable, drive, host, temperature,
    voltage and process variation, you'll run into problems if something is out of
    spec.

    If you are involved with building tens of thousands (or even more) systems, if
    you use an out of spec cable, some percentage of that production will have a
    problem related to it. Worse, it would be the kind of problem that is difficult
    to reproduce and seems to mysteriously strike some poor schmuck's computer at
    the worst possible times, then just never happen when you try to figure out
    what's going on.

    But you as an individual might get lucky and have no problems in any small
    sample of 1-100 systems or so.

    Same deal with extra-long ATA ribbons. You get away with it a lot of times.
    Sooner or later, someone gets burned.

    Personally, computers are a big enough pain in the ass when they are working
    right. I don't see any reason to add something askew into the mix. That's also
    why I do not overclock either.




    --
    Dr. Nuketopia
    Sorry, no e-Mail.
    Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.
  16. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    In article <20030818020802.11637.00000181@mb-m11.aol.com> larrysb@aol.commode writes:

    > Sorry, no e-Mail.
    > Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.


    OK, then I won't even try the obvious e-mail address translation, and
    embarass myself in public. Since you seem to know your way around the
    ATA interface pretty well, maybe you can shed some light on a
    mysterious problem I had recently (and who knows, maybe I still have).

    A couple of weeks ago, I turned on my Mackie HDR24/96 and it didn't
    boot up. (It has some firmware which starts and it boots to something
    like DOS from the internal hard drive) The first time around, I wasn't
    watching - went to get a cup of coffee while it booted up - and came
    back to the studio to find a blank CRT and a message on the LCD saying
    that it hadn't booted. So I did what every other red-blooded HDR owner
    does, switched the power off and back on, and this time watched what
    was happening. The opening BIOS screen on the CRT looked OK at quick
    glance so at least I knew that much was working, but when it came time
    to load the OS off the disk, it just make a gentle clicking sound.
    Repeated the boot-up, and the same failure occurred.

    I figured that the drive had died (shit happens when you have a
    computer at heart), but first I pulled and re-seated the cables just
    to be sure that wasn't the problem. Same failure. I replaced the
    drive, loaded the OS, and the HDR came up normally. Hoping to confirm
    the failure, I put the old drive back, and by golly, that worked too.
    So I copied a project on to that drive, started playin it, recorded on
    it, shut it off, turned it back on, let it run play, looping, all day,
    turned it on and off several times, and it seemed to be OK. I was
    about to dismiss it as an intermittent ribbon cable connection and
    went to bed.

    Next morning, I started it up to check it out and again, it wouldn't
    boot. This time, I took a good look at the CRT display while it was
    booting, and on the line where it reads the identification off the
    hard drives, it read:

    EAPTGR(6L0:0B1
    instead of
    MAXTOR 6L020J1

    I didn't notice that before because I saw something (it goes away
    pretty quickly) that looked correct in the right place on the screen.

    Hmmmm . . . . it looks like the high order bit of each nibble that
    represents a text character there is incorrect.

    This time around, instead of replacing the drive (the original one was
    still installed) I replaced the cable, and the boot-up display now
    correctly identified the drive, and it booted up just fine. It's been
    working fine ever since.

    Anyway, what my real question is this - is whatever it's reading when
    the BIOS first accesses the drive using the same route as the normal
    data once things get cooking? I'm wondering why the drive ID problem
    can be so consistent, but once it does decide that it knows what's
    there and loads the OS, everything works fine.

    It could be just a pesky intermittent that I can't really isolate.
    Next time I see a good sale on a drive, I'll probalby replace it on
    general principles, but I'd like to be able to know with reasonable
    certainty whether I have a bad drive, a bad cable, or even a bad
    connector on the mother board. I'm running out of things that I can
    isolate for testing.



    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  17. area242

    area242 Guest

    Use the suspect cable on the other confirmed hard drive. If it happens on
    THAT drive, I would consider the cable as a proven problem and throw it
    away.
  18. xy

    xy Guest

    Nuke, you rule!

    i printed your response out. that's my college class for the day.
  19. nuke

    nuke Guest

    >EAPTGR(6L0:0B1
    > instead of
    >MAXTOR 6L020J1


    >Hmmmm . . . . it looks like the high order bit of each nibble that
    >represents a text character there is incorrect.


    Yup, bit 3 is toast.

    The data interface is 16-bits wide and the IDENTIFY DEVICE command strings are
    sent byte-swapped for your little-endian pleasure.

    >This time around, instead of replacing the drive (the original one was
    >still installed) I replaced the cable, and the boot-up display now
    >correctly identified the drive, and it booted up just fine. It's been
    >working fine ever since.


    Might be it.

    >Anyway, what my real question is this - is whatever it's reading when
    >the BIOS first accesses the drive using the same route as the normal
    >data once things get cooking?


    More or less. The first thing that happens is a reset. Then the host polls the
    STATUS register until the busy bit clears and then reads the register file to
    see if what kind of drive is there. (ATA drives have a signature of 01h 01h
    00h 00h and ATAPI shows EBh 14h).

    When it figures out the type of drive protocol, the host sends a IDENTIFY
    DEVICE command, which the drive responds with a 512 byte long page of device
    information in PIO mode, which includes the strings and serial numbers, mode,
    capacity and so on the drive supports.

    It's similar to the data transfer, except PIO mode is used (where the host
    repeatedly reads the 16-bit data port register to retrieve the data). In modern
    stuff, the host then figures out what modes the drive supports, configures the
    interface on the host side and sends a series of SET FEATURES commands to the
    drive to configure the selected transfer modes.

    Once that is done, most modern devices will use the best DMA mode available for
    data transfers.

    It is possible in your case that the cable was bad, or something else was bad.
    My money would be on the cable.

    >It could be just a pesky intermittent that I can't really isolate.
    >Next time I see a good sale on a drive, I'll probalby replace it on
    >general principles, but I'd like to be able to know with reasonable
    >certainty whether I have a bad drive, a bad cable, or even a bad
    >connector on the mother board. I'm running out of things that I can
    >isolate for testing.


    It could be any of the above, including a bad MLB, or controller chip.

    It could even be something more bizare like an internal memory corruption or
    something else weird in the host too.


    --
    Dr. Nuketopia
    Sorry, no e-Mail.
    Spam forgeries have resulted in thousands of faked bounces to my address.

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