The elusive ANALOG Drum sound

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by Richard Morrow, Aug 20, 2003.

  1. Hi all.
    Now that I have my "Purely" Analog 2" 24 track studio up and
    running,the only thing missing is either an acoustic drum set or a
    pintech type V-pro or midi controller and sequencer program.
    Since I'm not a drummer, I've tried to bang out a drum sound on a
    controller using an Alesis DMPro module and Cakewalk as a sequencer.
    As T. Rundgren said so well I don't want to work, I just want to bang
    on the drum all day. The work being programming, and banging it out
    being the acoustic set.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm a classically trained musician, (oboist, and I
    also dink on guitar). Calling in a drummer friend is what I will do.
    I'm finding that it is futile for me to use in the studio anything
    other than an acoustic drum set at this point and worse scenario is a
    midi click track for keeping tempo using a sequencer recorded on
    either channel one or channel two (for those that believe that outside
    channels are subject to more problems). It's cheaper than hiring a
    conductor.
    After all "that fat analog sound" is indeed an acoustic set miked
    properly and not a midi drum module or software.
    So...
    I'm prepared to shell out about $750 for a drum set, floating a
    platform,and getting a couple of more mikes dedicated to the drum set.
    That's a whole other discussion on what mike for what, which I guess
    would be something like an RE-20 for kick, some cardioid condensers
    for snare and symbols maybe a sennheiser MD421 for toms, overhead?
    opinions are welcome here
    What has the groups experience been recording acoustic drums on tape??
    Do I need individual gates for each piece?, alas I have only one
    DS201, how many mikes is ideal? Limiting? I guess there has to be
    someone out there who has written THE BOOK on the subject.
    Also since I'm new to drum tracking, how many channels should I
    dedicate to the set. the set lets say is a kick, hi hat, crash and
    ride symbols, snare, 2 toms.
    I've heard of some recordings having had 8 dedicated tracks for a drum
    set.
    Well, thanks in advance remembering I don't know anything about
    recording live acoustic drums nor playing them. Drum lessons are next
    on the agenda.
    R. Morrow
  2. John L Rice

    John L Rice Guest

    "Richard Morrow" <rbmrocket@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:13bb29a2.0308191918.6cbe9b@posting.google.com...
    > Hi all.
    > Now that I have my "Purely" Analog 2" 24 track studio up and
    > running,the only thing missing is either an acoustic drum set or a
    > pintech type V-pro or midi controller and sequencer program.
    > Since I'm not a drummer, I've tried to bang out a drum sound on a
    > controller using an Alesis DMPro module and Cakewalk as a sequencer.
    > As T. Rundgren said so well I don't want to work, I just want to bang
    > on the drum all day. The work being programming, and banging it out
    > being the acoustic set.
    > Don't get me wrong, I'm a classically trained musician, (oboist, and I
    > also dink on guitar). Calling in a drummer friend is what I will do.
    > I'm finding that it is futile for me to use in the studio anything
    > other than an acoustic drum set at this point and worse scenario is a
    > midi click track for keeping tempo using a sequencer recorded on
    > either channel one or channel two (for those that believe that outside
    > channels are subject to more problems). It's cheaper than hiring a
    > conductor.
    > After all "that fat analog sound" is indeed an acoustic set miked
    > properly and not a midi drum module or software.
    > So...
    > I'm prepared to shell out about $750 for a drum set, floating a
    > platform,and getting a couple of more mikes dedicated to the drum set.


    Hi Richard,

    If you try to get all of that for $750 you wont get much.

    Drum set :
    For a new low end Tama, Mapex, Pacific, or Pearl etc set figure $400 to
    $500. And that only includes the drum shells and basic hardware ( often only
    one ride/crash stand ). And the heads they give you are crap so figure
    another $50 to $80 for a decent set of them. You'll need cymbals and you
    really can't skimp as much here as you did with the drum shells. Add $200
    to $300 for a nice pair of hihats, $150 to $300 for a good ride, and $120 to
    $200 each for two decent crash cymabls. ( plus $50 for an extra cymbal
    stand ) You may also want to get a good splash and accent cymbals to so add
    $200 total for those plus two clamp on cymbal arms. So that's about $1300
    on the low end side. You can do pretty well though buying used stuff, with
    the help of your drummer friend, if you have patience and search for people
    in want ads / garage sales who don't know or don't care what they have. I
    wouldn't count on finding a good used setup with good cymbals for under $500
    to $600 though.

    Floated Platform :
    Auralex has a product called PlatFoam that you can use along with a heavy
    sheet of plywood to make a quick floated drum platform. If you want
    something more solid check out the one I built for myself. I can't remember
    how much it cost to built exactly but I think it was under $200 :
    http://www.imjohn.com/DrumFloor/index.htm

    Mics :
    The RE-20 you mention below is around $400 and the MD421 is $300 so your
    whole budget is blown just on two mics. For a budget setup try an Audio
    Technica ATM25 for bass, SM57 on snare and two Marshall MXL 603s mics for
    overheads. Total under $400. Of course you may or may not need stans and
    cables. MAybe a pair of 'drummer' isolation headphones too?

    I know you may not have it but a budget of about $2000 is a lot more
    reasonable for what you are trying to accomplish.

    Best of luck!

    John L Rice
    Drummer@ImJohn.com



    > That's a whole other discussion on what mike for what, which I guess
    > would be something like an RE-20 for kick, some cardioid condensers
    > for snare and symbols maybe a sennheiser MD421 for toms, overhead?
    > opinions are welcome here
    > What has the groups experience been recording acoustic drums on tape??
    > Do I need individual gates for each piece?, alas I have only one
    > DS201, how many mikes is ideal? Limiting? I guess there has to be
    > someone out there who has written THE BOOK on the subject.
    > Also since I'm new to drum tracking, how many channels should I
    > dedicate to the set. the set lets say is a kick, hi hat, crash and
    > ride symbols, snare, 2 toms.
    > I've heard of some recordings having had 8 dedicated tracks for a drum
    > set.
    > Well, thanks in advance remembering I don't know anything about
    > recording live acoustic drums nor playing them. Drum lessons are next
    > on the agenda.
    > R. Morrow
  3. Fill X

    Fill X Guest

    Whatever you do, I'd read google a lot because drum mic set- ups are probably
    discussed more than anything else around here.

    My advice for micing is:

    - use as few mics as possible

    - do not use eq, gates or compression to tape unless you're going for something
    "weird" that you need to hear right away.

    - try something new, often, so you wont get stuck in one way of thinking and go
    for the same sound all the time.


    P h i l i p

    ______________________________

    "I'm too fucking busy and vice-versa"

    - Dorothy Parker
  4. Richard Morrow wrote:
    >
    > Now that I have my "Purely" Analog 2" 24 track studio up and
    > running,the only thing missing is either an acoustic drum set or a
    > pintech type V-pro or midi controller and sequencer program.


    How's the room? that "elusive ANALOG Drum sound" most of us think of
    results from not only great drums, well maintained and played by a great
    player--but played in a high-cieling room with the mic(s) back far
    enough to catch the fully-developed tone of the kit.
  5. "John L Rice" <Drummer@ImJohn.com> wrote in message news:<vk62usoh3eq3b6@corp.supernews.com>...
    > "Richard Morrow" <rbmrocket@aol.com> wrote in message
    > news:13bb29a2.0308191918.6cbe9b@posting.google.com...
    > > Hi all.
    > > Now that I have my "Purely" Analog 2" 24 track studio up and
    > > running,the only thing missing is either an acoustic drum set or a
    > > pintech type V-pro or midi controller and sequencer program.
    > > Since I'm not a drummer, I've tried to bang out a drum sound on a
    > > controller using an Alesis DMPro module and Cakewalk as a sequencer.
    > > As T. Rundgren said so well I don't want to work, I just want to bang
    > > on the drum all day. The work being programming, and banging it out
    > > being the acoustic set.
    > > Don't get me wrong, I'm a classically trained musician, (oboist, and I
    > > also dink on guitar). Calling in a drummer friend is what I will do.
    > > I'm finding that it is futile for me to use in the studio anything
    > > other than an acoustic drum set at this point and worse scenario is a
    > > midi click track for keeping tempo using a sequencer recorded on
    > > either channel one or channel two (for those that believe that outside
    > > channels are subject to more problems). It's cheaper than hiring a
    > > conductor.
    > > After all "that fat analog sound" is indeed an acoustic set miked
    > > properly and not a midi drum module or software.
    > > So...
    > > I'm prepared to shell out about $750 for a drum set, floating a
    > > platform,and getting a couple of more mikes dedicated to the drum set.

    >
    > Hi Richard,
    >
    > If you try to get all of that for $750 you wont get much.
    >
    > Drum set :
    > For a new low end Tama, Mapex, Pacific, or Pearl etc set figure $400 to
    > $500. And that only includes the drum shells and basic hardware ( often only
    > one ride/crash stand ). And the heads they give you are crap so figure
    > another $50 to $80 for a decent set of them. You'll need cymbals and you
    > really can't skimp as much here as you did with the drum shells. Add $200
    > to $300 for a nice pair of hihats, $150 to $300 for a good ride, and $120 to
    > $200 each for two decent crash cymabls. ( plus $50 for an extra cymbal
    > stand ) You may also want to get a good splash and accent cymbals to so add
    > $200 total for those plus two clamp on cymbal arms. So that's about $1300
    > on the low end side. You can do pretty well though buying used stuff, with
    > the help of your drummer friend, if you have patience and search for people
    > in want ads / garage sales who don't know or don't care what they have. I
    > wouldn't count on finding a good used setup with good cymbals for under $500
    > to $600 though.
    >
    > Floated Platform :
    > Auralex has a product called PlatFoam that you can use along with a heavy
    > sheet of plywood to make a quick floated drum platform. If you want
    > something more solid check out the one I built for myself. I can't remember
    > how much it cost to built exactly but I think it was under $200 :
    > http://www.imjohn.com/DrumFloor/index.htm
    >
    > Mics :
    > The RE-20 you mention below is around $400 and the MD421 is $300 so your
    > whole budget is blown just on two mics. For a budget setup try an Audio
    > Technica ATM25 for bass, SM57 on snare and two Marshall MXL 603s mics for
    > overheads. Total under $400. Of course you may or may not need stans and
    > cables. MAybe a pair of 'drummer' isolation headphones too?
    >
    > I know you may not have it but a budget of about $2000 is a lot more
    > reasonable for what you are trying to accomplish.
    >
    > Best of luck!
    >
    > John L Rice
    > Drummer@ImJohn.com
    >
    > Thank you John.

    Acually my drummer friend has an acoustic set he paid $1750 for which
    is the allotted $750.
    Present mics are : U87, AKG 414, AKG 451EB with BLUE lollipop,
    BLuebery, RE-16, SM57 and 58, MKH-805.
    I figure another pair of high end condensors say KM184 and 185, and an
    RE-20.
    There really is no budget but lets say less than $3000 since I have to
    allocat another $3000 for a pair of EQ's badly needed.
    >I'm really convinced that acoustic and not midi is the way to go

    here.
    R. Morrow
  6. "Richard Morrow" <rbmrocket@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:13bb29a2.0308191918.6cbe9b@posting.google.com...
    [deleted for brevity]
    > Don't get me wrong, I'm a classically trained musician, (oboist, and I
    > also dink on guitar). Calling in a drummer friend is what I will do.
    > I'm finding that it is futile for me to use in the studio anything
    > other than an acoustic drum set at this point and worse scenario is a
    > midi click track for keeping tempo using a sequencer recorded on
    > either channel one or channel two (for those that believe that outside
    > channels are subject to more problems). It's cheaper than hiring a
    > conductor.

    [more deleted for brevity]
    > R. Morrow


    Yes, a click track is not a good thing. I invite you to take a look at our
    product (which will be released soon)
    http://www.VisualConductor.com. This thing is WAY cheaper than hiring a
    conductor, but much easier to follow than a click.

    Phillip
  7. John L Rice

    John L Rice Guest

    "Phillip Vogel" <phillip@bartal.com> wrote in message
    news:3f43a764$1_2@nntp2.nac.net...
    >
    > "Richard Morrow" <rbmrocket@aol.com> wrote in message
    > news:13bb29a2.0308191918.6cbe9b@posting.google.com...
    > [deleted for brevity]
    > > Don't get me wrong, I'm a classically trained musician, (oboist, and I
    > > also dink on guitar). Calling in a drummer friend is what I will do.
    > > I'm finding that it is futile for me to use in the studio anything
    > > other than an acoustic drum set at this point and worse scenario is a
    > > midi click track for keeping tempo using a sequencer recorded on
    > > either channel one or channel two (for those that believe that outside
    > > channels are subject to more problems). It's cheaper than hiring a
    > > conductor.

    > [more deleted for brevity]
    > > R. Morrow

    >
    > Yes, a click track is not a good thing. I invite you to take a look at our
    > product (which will be released soon)
    > http://www.VisualConductor.com. This thing is WAY cheaper than hiring a
    > conductor, but much easier to follow than a click.
    >
    > Phillip
    >


    Hi Phillip,

    I'm very interested in this product. Is there a user's manual, spec sheet,
    release date or price list available? Are all the 'big name' users listed on
    the site just beta testers or was the product previously released and
    discontinued in the past or ?

    I shouldn't make any assumptions before I actually try it but here are some
    suggestions that come to mind ( that you may have already thought of ) :

    * use tri-colored LEDs. One color for main display, the brightest color to
    accent the down beats / change of direction beats and the third color for
    showing a second compound pattern.
    * ability to turn accent lights on/off, only show accents ( no in-between
    sweep LEDs ), use double time accents, etc
    * have a solid row of LEDs at the bottom to flash the downbeats

    I'll wait till I actually try one before I continue rambling about it.

    John L Rice
    Drummer@ImJohn.com
  8. "John L Rice" <Drummer@ImJohn.com> wrote in message
    news:vk84scgl3qp98a@corp.supernews.com...
    >
    > "Phillip Vogel" <phillip@bartal.com> wrote in message
    > news:3f43a764$1_2@nntp2.nac.net...
    > >
    > > "Richard Morrow" <rbmrocket@aol.com> wrote in message
    > > news:13bb29a2.0308191918.6cbe9b@posting.google.com...
    > > [deleted for brevity]
    > > > Don't get me wrong, I'm a classically trained musician, (oboist, and I
    > > > also dink on guitar). Calling in a drummer friend is what I will do.
    > > > I'm finding that it is futile for me to use in the studio anything
    > > > other than an acoustic drum set at this point and worse scenario is a
    > > > midi click track for keeping tempo using a sequencer recorded on
    > > > either channel one or channel two (for those that believe that outside
    > > > channels are subject to more problems). It's cheaper than hiring a
    > > > conductor.

    > > [more deleted for brevity]
    > > > R. Morrow

    > >
    > > Yes, a click track is not a good thing. I invite you to take a look at

    our
    > > product (which will be released soon)
    > > http://www.VisualConductor.com. This thing is WAY cheaper than hiring a
    > > conductor, but much easier to follow than a click.
    > >
    > > Phillip
    > >

    >
    > Hi Phillip,
    >
    > I'm very interested in this product. Is there a user's manual, spec

    sheet,
    > release date or price list available? Are all the 'big name' users listed

    on
    > the site just beta testers or was the product previously released and
    > discontinued in the past or ?
    >
    > I shouldn't make any assumptions before I actually try it but here are

    some
    > suggestions that come to mind ( that you may have already thought of ) :
    >
    > * use tri-colored LEDs. One color for main display, the brightest color to
    > accent the down beats / change of direction beats and the third color for
    > showing a second compound pattern.
    > * ability to turn accent lights on/off, only show accents ( no in-between
    > sweep LEDs ), use double time accents, etc
    > * have a solid row of LEDs at the bottom to flash the downbeats
    >
    > I'll wait till I actually try one before I continue rambling about it.
    >
    > John L Rice
    > Drummer@ImJohn.com
    >


    Hi John,

    Right now, if you've seen the web site, you've seen all the publicly
    available data. There is a user's manual, but it's got to be redone (the
    original was composed in a word processor that is long, long gone). When
    it's ready, it'll be available on the web site, along with some more
    illustrative demonstrations.

    The Visual Conductor was previously released in the early 90's. Sales were
    OK, there are a few hundred units out there, but my partner and I had major
    differences on the course of the business, and decided to hang it up. I
    bought out his share, and let it sit in my closet for a few years. Well, the
    time has come...

    The LEDs are single colored, though there are three colors. The downbeat LED
    (bottom center) is red, and the remining beats are yellow. All of the 'in
    between' LEDs are green. The effect is subtle, but does make a difference.
    You can program the patterns to some extent, as they are made up of smaller
    sections. While you can't address each LED individually (though that's not
    out of the question for a future firmware upgrade), you can blink the center
    (also red) LED as a cue.

    One of the demo sequences I use is "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" in 4/4,
    3/4, 2/4 & 1/4. The tempo is constantly changing. I had an eleven year old
    kid try to tap his finger in time to the (single) flashing light with the
    volume turned off. It was impossible. I then turned on the Visual Conductor,
    and he stayed right on the beat. I know it sounds like I'm blowing my own
    horn here, but I swear, that's the way it happened.

    I'm thinking about showing at AES in October, or NAMM in January. I'm not
    yet sure of a release date (though it should be soon, especially with a
    photocopied manual) or a price.

    There is also another product that uses the computer screen rather than LEDs
    to perform the same job (actually, it looks identical in operation). This
    is, at least for now, a windows only program, and works in conjunction with
    a Visual Conductor control box. Again, no price or release date yet, though
    this will most likely come after the release of the 'big box'.

    If you have any more questions, feel free to ask them here (as long as it
    doesn't upset the rest of the group), or contact me by phone or email.

    Phillip

    --
    Phillip Vogel
    Bartal Design Group, Inc.
    mailto:phillip@bartal.com http://www.VisualConductor.com
  9. Mike Rivers

    Mike Rivers Guest

    "Phillip Vogel" <phillip@bartal.com> wrote in message

    > I invite you to take a look at our
    > product (which will be released soon)
    > http://www.VisualConductor.com.


    New product my ass! Or did you just buy it from the original
    developer. I saw that, and one or two others along the same line at
    NAMM shows about 10 years ago. I even remembered the name, though they
    didn't have web sites back then. I might even have a flyer in the file
    cabinet.

    A real one (or two) show wonder. Lots of interest but no buyers. Good
    luck this time around.


    --
    I'm really Mike Rivers - (mrivers@d-and-d.com)
  10. "Mike Rivers" <mrivers@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
    news:znr1061428501k@trad...
    >
    > "Phillip Vogel" <phillip@bartal.com> wrote in message
    >
    > > I invite you to take a look at our
    > > product (which will be released soon)
    > > http://www.VisualConductor.com.

    >
    > New product my ass! Or did you just buy it from the original
    > developer. I saw that, and one or two others along the same line at
    > NAMM shows about 10 years ago. I even remembered the name, though they
    > didn't have web sites back then. I might even have a flyer in the file
    > cabinet.
    >
    > A real one (or two) show wonder. Lots of interest but no buyers. Good
    > luck this time around.


    No, Mike, I did NOT just buy it from the original developer. If you had
    bothered to read my posting from last night, you would have known that I AM
    the original developer, and the Visual Conductor was taken off the market
    not for a lack of buyers, but due to business differences between my partner
    and me.

    The Visual Conductor being developed now is essentially the same as the one
    you saw at NAMM in the early 90's, with updated electronics and some new
    features.


    --
    Phillip Vogel
    Bartal Design Group, Inc.
    mailto:phillip@bartal.com http://www.VisualConductor.com

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