Thorens 125!

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by Max Metral, Jul 30, 2003.

  1. Max Metral

    Max Metral Guest

    So I think I bought this Thorens 125:

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3036522698&category=3283

    After the 33/45 switching problems of my 160 and the lack of built in strobe
    I thought it would be good to get a 125 instead for my transcription work.
    Anybody have any recommendations for what I should change on this 125?
    Looks like it could use a new cartridge. Previously folks have recommended
    the Grado DJ-100 and the Audio-Technica AT-440. Same recommendations for
    this arm (which I don't yet know what it is)?

    Thanks all, and especially Scott D who always responds. :)
    --Max
  2. Arny Krueger

    Arny Krueger Guest

    "Max Metral" <max@nospam.net> wrote in message
    news:vifk0uo8ch26cf@corp.supernews.com
    > So I think I bought this Thorens 125:
    >
    >

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3036522698&category=3283
    >
    > After the 33/45 switching problems of my 160 and the lack of built in
    > strobe I thought it would be good to get a 125 instead for my
    > transcription work. Anybody have any recommendations for what I
    > should change on this 125? Looks like it could use a new cartridge.
    > Previously folks have recommended the Grado DJ-100 and the
    > Audio-Technica AT-440. Same recommendations for this arm (which I
    > don't yet know what it is)?


    My TD-125 (may it r.i.p) had a SME 3009II and a Sure V-15II & IV. I think
    I'd still prefer that combination over the Sony arm and any cartridge you've
    mentioned so far.
  3. P Stamler

    P Stamler Guest

    >My TD-125 (may it r.i.p) had a SME 3009II and a Sure V-15II & IV. I think
    >I'd still prefer that combination over the Sony arm and any cartridge you've
    >mentioned so far.


    I'd suggest the V-15VxMR. For serious transcription work, though, use it with
    the brush/stabilizer retracted, as the brush tends to play the record and add
    noise to the background. You need to adjust the tracking force if you do this,
    of course, and you lose the damping of the low-frequency resonance, but you
    also lose a lot of muddle, audible during quiet passages and between cuts.

    For an arm, since you probably won't be changing cartridges much, go for
    something with a non-detachable headshell. More rigid.

    Peace,
    Paul
  4. Luke Kaven

    Luke Kaven Guest

    "Max Metral" <max@nospam.net> wrote:

    >So I think I bought this Thorens 125:
    >
    >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3036522698&category=3283
    >
    >After the 33/45 switching problems of my 160 and the lack of built in strobe
    >I thought it would be good to get a 125 instead for my transcription work.
    >Anybody have any recommendations for what I should change on this 125?
    >Looks like it could use a new cartridge. Previously folks have recommended
    >the Grado DJ-100 and the Audio-Technica AT-440. Same recommendations for
    >this arm (which I don't yet know what it is)?
    >
    >Thanks all, and especially Scott D who always responds. :)
    >--Max



    I thought the Stanton 681 EEE sounded pretty good on mine.
  5. Steve

    Steve Guest

    "Max Metral" <max@nospam.net> wrote in message news:<vifk0uo8ch26cf@corp.supernews.com>...
    > So I think I bought this Thorens 125:
    >
    > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3036522698&category=3283
    >
    > After the 33/45 switching problems of my 160 and the lack of built in strobe
    > I thought it would be good to get a 125 instead for my transcription work.
    > Anybody have any recommendations for what I should change on this 125?
    > Looks like it could use a new cartridge. Previously folks have recommended
    > the Grado DJ-100 and the Audio-Technica AT-440. Same recommendations for
    > this arm (which I don't yet know what it is)?
    >
    > Thanks all, and especially Scott D who always responds. :)
    > --Max


    Are you sure you have this ?It sez "reseve not met".

    Steve Lane
  6. Stephen Sank

    Stephen Sank Guest

    I've used V15VMR's for years & have never noticed any artifacts at all from
    the damper brush, and certainly consider it one of the major advantages of
    the Shures, with the micro-ridge tip being the best thing about the cart, of
    course. Personally, I can't stand Grado carts. Sound like shit & built
    like shit, in my opinion. If a cheap cart is needed, I'd go for the Shure
    M97xE, although better would be to get a used Me97HE.

    --
    Stephen Sank, Owner & Ribbon Mic Restorer
    Talking Dog Transducer Company
    http://stephensank.com
    5517 Carmelita Drive N.E.
    Albuquerque, New Mexico [87111]
    505-332-0336
    Auth. Nakamichi & McIntosh servicer
    Payments preferred through Paypal.com
    "P Stamler" <pstamler@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:20030730115256.09858.00000721@mb-m11.aol.com...
    > >My TD-125 (may it r.i.p) had a SME 3009II and a Sure V-15II & IV. I think
    > >I'd still prefer that combination over the Sony arm and any cartridge

    you've
    > >mentioned so far.

    >
    > I'd suggest the V-15VxMR. For serious transcription work, though, use it

    with
    > the brush/stabilizer retracted, as the brush tends to play the record and

    add
    > noise to the background. You need to adjust the tracking force if you do

    this,
    > of course, and you lose the damping of the low-frequency resonance, but

    you
    > also lose a lot of muddle, audible during quiet passages and between cuts.
    >
    > For an arm, since you probably won't be changing cartridges much, go for
    > something with a non-detachable headshell. More rigid.
    >
    > Peace,
    > Paul
  7. Fill X

    Fill X Guest

    i love the grado sound, and once you get into the wood body ones, the highs,
    while "relaxed" compared to some cartridges, are certainly there and pleasant.
    It's a sound though, very much like a cartdige I hate ; The Blue Point Special
    is a sound. If i were doing transcription work for 33's I'd also probably
    reccomend the shure because it's such a good tracker and fairly neutral. The AT
    is good too. I have never found the stanton to be as good as either the AT or
    the shure to my ears.


    P h i l i p

    ______________________________

    "I'm too fucking busy and vice-versa"

    - Dorothy Parker
  8. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    Fill X <mothra666@aol.com> wrote:
    >i love the grado sound, and once you get into the wood body ones, the highs,
    >while "relaxed" compared to some cartridges, are certainly there and pleasant.


    A lot of people who don't like the "Grado sound" don't like it because all
    they have heard are Grados that are close tooscillating out of control.
    The Grados on the wrong arm will sound just godawful. The DJ-100 is a bit
    less touchy than most but still very touchy.

    >It's a sound though, very much like a cartdige I hate ; The Blue Point Special
    >is a sound.


    The Blue Point is very, very dry and very etched on the top end. When it
    was a $99 cartridge that could easily be modified for a cleaner top end,
    it was a great deal and I'd recommend it for a lot of work. Now that it
    costs a bloody fortune and the body has been altered to make 'nuding' it more
    difficult, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.

    >If i were doing transcription work for 33's I'd also probably
    >reccomend the shure because it's such a good tracker and fairly neutral. The AT
    >is good too.


    The V-15VMR is a great cartridge, but because it's a fineline stylus it needs
    to be on an arm with adjustable VTA. It tracks amazingly well, though.

    The AT 440 tracks as well as the V-15, with a little harsher top end, for
    a lot less money. It's a great deal for a cartridge that does very well on
    old worn records. It also is a fineline, so it also needs an arm with
    adjustable VTA.

    >I have never found the stanton to be as good as either the AT or
    >the shure to my ears.


    The Stantons have very poor top end response and really lousy separation.
    They don't track worn records very well. However, they have a huge variety
    of weird styli available for them, and so they are a great choice for working
    with 78s where the separation is a non-issue.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  9. James Boyk

    James Boyk Guest

    Choosing a cartridge involves many factors, but one important that's
    usually ignored is that the *vertical* resonance frequency of
    arm+cartridge should be 10-14 Hz; my preference is for 12-14 Hz. You can
    easily calculate where this resonance will be, EXCEPT that it's hard to
    get correct data to use in the calculation; in particular, you need the
    "dynamic compliance" of the cartridge; and most makers don't specify
    this. (If they just say "compliance," it means "static compliance,"
    which is useless for the purpose.) In practice, It's easier simply to
    mount the cartridge in the arm and measure it. The old Thorens test
    record makes this easy and certain; the Shure test record--at least the
    last one I tried, which was years ago--makes it awkward and uncertain.

    I don't know the arm in the picture--is it an Audio-Technica?--but it
    looks quite high-mass. You may find that only a moving-coil cartridge
    has low enough compliance to put the resonant freq. in the right range.

    On the other hand, the Shure V-15, because of its damping brush, is
    usable in many situations from which its high dynamic compliance would
    otherwise disqualify it. The brush quiets down the resonance so much
    that you can use it even when the resonance is below 10Hz. It's still
    not ideal, but it's usable. However, there is a tradeoff: the brush adds
    a bit of grunge to the sound because the stylus picks up the "brush
    talk" in the groove. On the V-15 in my lab, we leave the brush up, and
    we use the cartridge with a low-mass arm (SME 3009 III).

    Other factors of course include the sound quality of the cartridge, its
    output level, physical sturdiness of cantilever assembly, and so on.

    James Boyk
  10. On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 08:59:12 -0700, James Boyk <boyk@caltech.edu>
    wrote:

    >I don't know the arm in the picture--is it an Audio-Technica?--but it
    >looks quite high-mass. You may find that only a moving-coil cartridge
    >has low enough compliance to put the resonant freq. in the right range.


    Sony PUA-237. Comparable to its contemporary SME 3009. Medium to
    medium-low mass. I can look it up tonight.

    Kal
  11. Techmeister

    Techmeister Guest

    UGH!

    NEVER use the Stanton on any critical disk. I have mastered for years, back to
    learning at Bob Ludwig's side in NY. The Stanton is a DJ cartridge, way too stiff.
    If it cannot track a passage, it literally REGROOVES it!

    I trashed a number of test pressing with one before I realized how bad it was.

    Use and AKG, a Shure, a Grado or similar high-compliance cartridge. The Stanton is
    very dated and harsh as well.

    After I switched to AKGs, I could never listen to them again.

    Techmeister

    In article <35sfivkancbr0a4imv7s6i2388rp0mv4o3@4ax.com>,
    Luke Kaven <luke@smallsrecords.com> wrote:

    > "Max Metral" <max@nospam.net> wrote:
    >
    > >So I think I bought this Thorens 125:
    > >
    > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3036522698&category=3283
    > >
    > >After the 33/45 switching problems of my 160 and the lack of built in strobe
    > >I thought it would be good to get a 125 instead for my transcription work.
    > >Anybody have any recommendations for what I should change on this 125?
    > >Looks like it could use a new cartridge. Previously folks have recommended
    > >the Grado DJ-100 and the Audio-Technica AT-440. Same recommendations for
    > >this arm (which I don't yet know what it is)?
    > >
    > >Thanks all, and especially Scott D who always responds. :)
    > >--Max

    >
    >
    > I thought the Stanton 681 EEE sounded pretty good on mine.
    >


    --
    David 'db' Butler, Consultant
    Acoustics by db
    "...all the rest are just brokers"
    now on the web at http://www.db-engineering.com
    Boston, Mass
    Phone 617 969-0585 Fax 617 964-1590
  12. Fill X

    Fill X Guest

    hey, scott and I agree. I must be learning something!



    >Fill X <mothra666@aol.com> wrote:
    >>i love the grado sound, and once you get into the wood body ones, the highs,
    >>while "relaxed" compared to some cartridges, are certainly there and

    >pleasant.
    >
    >A lot of people who don't like the "Grado sound" don't like it because all
    >they have heard are Grados that are close tooscillating out of control.
    >The Grados on the wrong arm will sound just godawful. The DJ-100 is a bit
    >less touchy than most but still very touchy.
    >
    >>It's a sound though, very much like a cartdige I hate ; The Blue Point

    >Special
    >>is a sound.

    >
    >The Blue Point is very, very dry and very etched on the top end. When it
    >was a $99 cartridge that could easily be modified for a cleaner top end,
    >it was a great deal and I'd recommend it for a lot of work. Now that it
    >costs a bloody fortune and the body has been altered to make 'nuding' it more
    >difficult, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
    >
    >>If i were doing transcription work for 33's I'd also probably
    >>reccomend the shure because it's such a good tracker and fairly neutral. The

    >AT
    >>is good too.

    >
    >The V-15VMR is a great cartridge, but because it's a fineline stylus it needs
    >to be on an arm with adjustable VTA. It tracks amazingly well, though.
    >
    >The AT 440 tracks as well as the V-15, with a little harsher top end, for
    >a lot less money. It's a great deal for a cartridge that does very well on
    >old worn records. It also is a fineline, so it also needs an arm with
    >adjustable VTA.
    >
    >>I have never found the stanton to be as good as either the AT or
    >>the shure to my ears.

    >
    >The Stantons have very poor top end response and really lousy separation.
    >They don't track worn records very well. However, they have a huge variety
    >of weird styli available for them, and so they are a great choice for working
    >with 78s where the separation is a non-issue.
    >--scott





    P h i l i p

    ______________________________

    "I'm too fucking busy and vice-versa"

    - Dorothy Parker
  13. Fill X

    Fill X Guest

    The Hi fi news review test record has a number of good anti-skating and arm
    resonance tests, as well as tones in and out of phase etc. It's the best of the
    currently available ones, I think.


    P h i l i p

    ______________________________

    "I'm too fucking busy and vice-versa"

    - Dorothy Parker
  14. On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:13:44 GMT, Techmeister
    <dbNOSPAMtech@broadviewnet.net> wrote:

    >UGH!
    >
    >NEVER use the Stanton on any critical disk. I have mastered for years, back to
    >learning at Bob Ludwig's side in NY. The Stanton is a DJ cartridge, way too stiff.
    >If it cannot track a passage, it literally REGROOVES it!


    Are you kidding? Perhaps other Stanton's are DJ cartidges but the
    681EEE is decidedly not! It is a high quality, high compliance
    pickup.

    >I trashed a number of test pressing with one before I realized how bad it was.


    Again, another model or defective.

    Kal
  15. Stephen Sank

    Stephen Sank Guest

    While the Stanton 681EEE is not nearly as brutal on a record as the 680EL &
    etc., it's still a dreadful sounding cartridge, to my ears, at least. Top
    end is not even remotely close to as smooth & detailed as the Shure, and
    overall very unmusical. I'll take a well used V15-II over the Stanton.
    And I have heard the best & worst Grados on very properly setup & appropiate
    arms, and I still think they suck.

    --
    Stephen Sank, Owner & Ribbon Mic Restorer
    Talking Dog Transducer Company
    http://stephensank.com
    5517 Carmelita Drive N.E.
    Albuquerque, New Mexico [87111]
    505-332-0336
    Auth. Nakamichi & McIntosh servicer
    Payments preferred through Paypal.com
    "Kalman Rubinson" <kr4@nyu.edu> wrote in message
    news:0eqiivcv8sp7i7tfknot6rtkctp7r0cb5f@4ax.com...
    > On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:13:44 GMT, Techmeister
    > <dbNOSPAMtech@broadviewnet.net> wrote:
    >
    > >UGH!
    > >
    > >NEVER use the Stanton on any critical disk. I have mastered for years,

    back to
    > >learning at Bob Ludwig's side in NY. The Stanton is a DJ cartridge, way

    too stiff.
    > >If it cannot track a passage, it literally REGROOVES it!

    >
    > Are you kidding? Perhaps other Stanton's are DJ cartidges but the
    > 681EEE is decidedly not! It is a high quality, high compliance
    > pickup.
    >
    > >I trashed a number of test pressing with one before I realized how bad it

    was.
    >
    > Again, another model or defective.
    >
    > Kal
    >
  16. Techmeister

    Techmeister Guest

    Yeah, it is spec'd as a regular cartridge but they don't track worth a damn. the
    spec may say high compliance, but i have heard them shred grooves more than once.

    Trust me, I have only been doing this since 1969. You will not find ANY MAstering
    Engineer that has used these for decades.

    Listen to a Grado or an AKG or similar cartridge, you will NEVER use a Stanton again.

    In article <0eqiivcv8sp7i7tfknot6rtkctp7r0cb5f@4ax.com>,
    Kalman Rubinson <kr4@nyu.edu> wrote:

    > On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:13:44 GMT, Techmeister
    > <dbNOSPAMtech@broadviewnet.net> wrote:
    >
    > >UGH!
    > >
    > >NEVER use the Stanton on any critical disk. I have mastered for years, back
    > >to
    > >learning at Bob Ludwig's side in NY. The Stanton is a DJ cartridge, way too
    > >stiff.
    > >If it cannot track a passage, it literally REGROOVES it!

    >
    > Are you kidding? Perhaps other Stanton's are DJ cartidges but the
    > 681EEE is decidedly not! It is a high quality, high compliance
    > pickup.
    >
    > >I trashed a number of test pressing with one before I realized how bad it
    > >was.

    >
    > Again, another model or defective.
    >
    > Kal
    >


    --
    David 'db' Butler, Consultant
    Acoustics by db
    "...all the rest are just brokers"
    now on the web at http://www.db-engineering.com
    Boston, Mass
    Phone 617 969-0585 Fax 617 964-1590
  17. Techmeister

    Techmeister Guest

    Well, we agree on the Stantons. I am surprised to see you have such a bad impression
    of the Grado, given that you like the Shure.

    have you ever heard any of the AKG cartridges ?

    David

    In article <bgc2no$p5p$1@reader2.nmix.net>, "Stephen Sank" <bk11@thuntek.net>
    wrote:

    > While the Stanton 681EEE is not nearly as brutal on a record as the 680EL &
    > etc., it's still a dreadful sounding cartridge, to my ears, at least. Top
    > end is not even remotely close to as smooth & detailed as the Shure, and
    > overall very unmusical. I'll take a well used V15-II over the Stanton.
    > And I have heard the best & worst Grados on very properly setup & appropiate
    > arms, and I still think they suck.
    >
    > --
    > Stephen Sank, Owner & Ribbon Mic Restorer
    > Talking Dog Transducer Company
    > http://stephensank.com
    > 5517 Carmelita Drive N.E.
    > Albuquerque, New Mexico [87111]
    > 505-332-0336
    > Auth. Nakamichi & McIntosh servicer
    > Payments preferred through Paypal.com
    > "Kalman Rubinson" <kr4@nyu.edu> wrote in message
    > news:0eqiivcv8sp7i7tfknot6rtkctp7r0cb5f@4ax.com...
    > > On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:13:44 GMT, Techmeister
    > > <dbNOSPAMtech@broadviewnet.net> wrote:
    > >
    > > >UGH!
    > > >
    > > >NEVER use the Stanton on any critical disk. I have mastered for years,

    > back to
    > > >learning at Bob Ludwig's side in NY. The Stanton is a DJ cartridge, way

    > too stiff.
    > > >If it cannot track a passage, it literally REGROOVES it!

    > >
    > > Are you kidding? Perhaps other Stanton's are DJ cartidges but the
    > > 681EEE is decidedly not! It is a high quality, high compliance
    > > pickup.
    > >
    > > >I trashed a number of test pressing with one before I realized how bad it

    > was.
    > >
    > > Again, another model or defective.
    > >
    > > Kal
    > >

    >
    >


    --
    David 'db' Butler, Consultant
    Acoustics by db
    "...all the rest are just brokers"
    now on the web at http://www.db-engineering.com
    Boston, Mass
    Phone 617 969-0585 Fax 617 964-1590
  18. Looked up the manual for the Sony PUA-237. Unfortunately, Sony only
    quotes vertical and lateral resonances (9, 11Hz, respectively) with
    their own VC-8E cartridge and I do not know mass/compliance for that
    one.

    Kal
  19. Stephen Sank

    Stephen Sank Guest

    No, I've never listened to an AKG cart. I think I have an old one around
    here, maybe a model 520, or that's the number that comes to mind.

    --
    Stephen Sank, Owner & Ribbon Mic Restorer
    Talking Dog Transducer Company
    http://stephensank.com
    5517 Carmelita Drive N.E.
    Albuquerque, New Mexico [87111]
    505-332-0336
    Auth. Nakamichi & McIntosh servicer
    Payments preferred through Paypal.com
    "Techmeister" <dbNOSPAMtech@broadviewnet.net> wrote in message
    news:dbNOSPAMtech-606E32.18155731072003@news.easynews.com...
    > Well, we agree on the Stantons. I am surprised to see you have such a bad

    impression
    > of the Grado, given that you like the Shure.
    >
    > have you ever heard any of the AKG cartridges ?
    >
    > David
    >
    > In article <bgc2no$p5p$1@reader2.nmix.net>, "Stephen Sank"

    <bk11@thuntek.net>
    > wrote:
    >
    > > While the Stanton 681EEE is not nearly as brutal on a record as the

    680EL &
    > > etc., it's still a dreadful sounding cartridge, to my ears, at least.

    Top
    > > end is not even remotely close to as smooth & detailed as the Shure, and
    > > overall very unmusical. I'll take a well used V15-II over the Stanton.
    > > And I have heard the best & worst Grados on very properly setup &

    appropiate
    > > arms, and I still think they suck.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Stephen Sank, Owner & Ribbon Mic Restorer
    > > Talking Dog Transducer Company
    > > http://stephensank.com
    > > 5517 Carmelita Drive N.E.
    > > Albuquerque, New Mexico [87111]
    > > 505-332-0336
    > > Auth. Nakamichi & McIntosh servicer
    > > Payments preferred through Paypal.com
    > > "Kalman Rubinson" <kr4@nyu.edu> wrote in message
    > > news:0eqiivcv8sp7i7tfknot6rtkctp7r0cb5f@4ax.com...
    > > > On Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:13:44 GMT, Techmeister
    > > > <dbNOSPAMtech@broadviewnet.net> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > >UGH!
    > > > >
    > > > >NEVER use the Stanton on any critical disk. I have mastered for

    years,
    > > back to
    > > > >learning at Bob Ludwig's side in NY. The Stanton is a DJ cartridge,

    way
    > > too stiff.
    > > > >If it cannot track a passage, it literally REGROOVES it!
    > > >
    > > > Are you kidding? Perhaps other Stanton's are DJ cartidges but the
    > > > 681EEE is decidedly not! It is a high quality, high compliance
    > > > pickup.
    > > >
    > > > >I trashed a number of test pressing with one before I realized how

    bad it
    > > was.
    > > >
    > > > Again, another model or defective.
    > > >
    > > > Kal
    > > >

    > >
    > >

    >
    > --
    > David 'db' Butler, Consultant
    > Acoustics by db
    > "...all the rest are just brokers"
    > now on the web at http://www.db-engineering.com
    > Boston, Mass
    > Phone 617 969-0585 Fax 617 964-1590
  20. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    Techmeister <dbNOSPAMtech@broadviewnet.net> wrote:
    > Trust me, I have only been doing this since 1969. You will not find ANY MAstering
    >Engineer that has used these for decades.


    Actually, I have one rigged on the arm on my lathe, because I consider it
    a good way to judge trackability. If it'll play on a 681, it'll play on
    typical consumer gear.

    I know other folks who use M44s for the same thing, and one guy who had
    some horrible ceramic jukebox thing.

    >Listen to a Grado or an AKG or similar cartridge, you will NEVER use a Stanton again.


    Unfortunately there are very limited 78 styli for these. When you want
    a 3.8 mil, or a ball stylus, or you need to play a stamper, the 681EEE
    is sometimes the only thing you can get a stylus for.
    --scott
    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

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