Watching Shania

Discussion in 'rec.audio.pro' started by Mike Rivers, Aug 20, 2003.

  1. In article <20030828165015.19971.00000109@mb-m28.aol.com>,
    egghd@aol.com (EggHd) wrote:

    > But remember that every label is hiring all the indies to work all the
    > stations. One that happens, it becomes in essence a level playing field
    > again. Does that make sense?
    >


    That makes it a level playing field for those big labels who can afford
    the price of admission. It doesn't so much help the little guy. And
    level or not, it still seems more often than not to be a sleazy way for
    indie promoters to leech of the industry. But maybe I'm just mad that I
    didn't think of it first... (insert ironic smiley face here)

    --
    Jay Frigoletto
    Mastersuite
    Los Angeles
    promastering.com
  2. In article <cthomas-13D57C.16383628082003@teta.doit.wisc.edu>, Charles
    Thomas <cthomas@REMOVE_SPAM_BLOCK.facstaff.wisc.edu> wrote:

    > I'm not saying it has NOTHING to do with it. I would LOVE to believe it
    > has everything to do with it, but my belief is that the song quality has
    > something to do with it and the money behind it also has a great deal to
    > do with it.
    >
    > And when I look at the music getting played the most on the US radio, I
    > have to admit that it seems to me that the money behind a product and
    > that product's image has a lot more to do with what is becoming popular
    > than the quality of the product.
    >
    > I wish it were otherwise.



    Warning: Speculation and quick brainstorming ahead...

    You know, perhaps there is something to this on more of a Macro scale. I
    don't think in the day to day present world it's as clear cut and simple
    as you say, but perhaps lots of little and seemingly minor things add up
    over decades and trends develop that we'd rather not have seen. In the
    70s there were art rock bands who could have longer solos or
    instrumental sections, and have interesting and somewhat more complex
    chord changes and rythms, and these bands got pretty big, even in the
    mainstream. That would seem impossible now, and I don't think it's
    because nobody can play anymore. Then again, society has changed and
    wants more quantity than quality now, and wants things fast, simple, and
    easy to digest. So the buyers certainly influence what the market is
    selling, but it's reasonable to believe that the market probably also
    influences the buyer, and the complex interactions take us in a longterm
    direction. Sounds like there's an abstract for a sociology or business
    dissertation in there somewhere, not to mention a "chicken or the egg"
    question.

    That's all well and good from an intellectual point of view, but it's
    not going to help any of us here to sell more records!

    --
    Jay Frigoletto
    Mastersuite
    Los Angeles
    promastering.com
  3. In article <atldigi-CC95BE.22341328082003@news1.news.adelphia.net>, Jay
    - atldigi <atldigi@aol.com> wrote:

    > In article <20030828195316.05888.00000138@mb-m07.aol.com>,
    > egghd@aol.com (EggHd) wrote:
    >
    > > << Artists on respected indie
    > > labels like Bloodshot, RYKO, and Rounder, with bigger recording budgets
    > > and modest promotional budgets as well? >>
    > >
    > > How is Ryco doing after the merge with restless?

    >
    >
    > I can tell you that they take a REALLY long time to pay! That's the big
    > labels for ya. They do 'cause they can. At least you can be pretty sure
    > that you'll get it eventually.



    Before the Ryko guys get insulted I should clarify that I don't mean
    them specifically, or anybody in particular (OK, there is one label not
    mentioned here that's coming up on 90 days with us) - just a certain
    collection of labels in general. As many of us know, most labels aren't
    exactly speedy in the accounting department. Sorry Ryko - I know it
    looked as if I were picking on you for a moment!

    --
    Jay Frigoletto
    Mastersuite
    Los Angeles
    promastering.com
  4. EggHd

    EggHd Guest

    << That makes it a level playing field for those big labels who can afford
    the price of admission. >>

    Agreed but this is about Shania, so let's figure big ticket itmes.

    << It doesn't so much help the little guy. >>

    Right. It makes the radio game impossible in the traditional sense.

    << And
    level or not, it still seems more often than not to be a sleazy way for
    indie promoters to leech of the industry. >>

    If it means anything, Clear channel and others have stopped hiring the indies
    (it was a huge double dip) and most of the indies are now going to work as
    promo guys for the labels... Where they started out!

    But let's look at what an indie can (could) do for you.

    Some of the big indies were being paid by the chains AND hired by the labels
    (or the artists or publisher)

    In some cases the indies were paying the chains for access to the adds of the
    local stations that week.

    So now the indie has early info on an add for XYZ at the big station in Denver.
    The indie knows this and as he is being paid to work XYZ for ABC records,
    calls the add into the label like he had secured the add. Really, he just knew
    about the add before the label.

    The label had the indie hired on XYZ for 5K for every major market station, 3K
    for a secondary and 2K for a shcmutzer. Well, the label had about 5 indies
    hired for the same. So the indie that calls in the add first get's paid.

    You can see what a scam this is. In most cases, an indie is hired so you don't
    NOT get added. They are called in the biz, toll booths. Everyone is going to
    over through the toll booth but you don't have a shot without the toll. It
    won't get you on the radio, but it can keep you off.


    ---------------------------------------
    "I know enough to know I don't know enough"
  5. Les Cargill

    Les Cargill Guest

    Dave Martin wrote:
    >
    > "Les Cargill" <lcargill@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
    > news:3F4E7FD1.D7ABC02F@worldnet.att.net...
    > >
    > > The music business is pretty weird. I know enough to know I don't know
    > > much, and I'm pretty sure it's just bizarre. It's the difference between
    > > reading about Iceland in the National Geographic and having lived there
    > > a number of years.

    >
    > Les, you're not buying into the Iceland gag too, are you?
    >


    I know somebody who traces descent to the guy who voted Leif Erikson* off
    the island. Sorta skews yer perspective.

    *No, not *THAT* one. The other one.

    > --
    > Dave Martin
    > Java Jive Studio
    > Nashville, TN
    > www.javajivestudio.com



    --
    Les Cargill
  6. I would like to add that some artists also sound like poor imitations of
    what we make them sound like in the studio :)


    > But a real Big Mac looks like a midget damp stodgey pale imitation of the
    > *picture* of the Big Mac on the posters...
    >
    >
    > geoff
    >
    >
  7. Chris!

    Chris! Guest

    "Jay - atldigi" <atldigi@aol.com> wrote in message
    news:atldigi-A7D432.23174828082003@news1.news.adelphia.net...
    > In article <atldigi-CC95BE.22341328082003@news1.news.adelphia.net>, Jay
    > - atldigi <atldigi@aol.com> wrote:
    > > I can tell you that they take a REALLY long time to pay! That's the big
    > > labels for ya. They do 'cause they can.


    Hah! You should try the advertising business... I do a job and send an
    invoice. The agency invoices the client at the end of the month. The client
    waits a month or two to pay, then the agency waits a month or two to pay.


    --
    Chris White, Freelance Advertising Writer & Voice Overs*
    Email: chris@chriswhite.com Web: www.chriswhite.com
    Phone: 757-621-1348
    *Your opinion may vary
  8. Charles Thomas <cthomas@REMOVE_SPAM_BLOCK.facstaff.wisc.edu> wrote:

    > And when I look at the music getting played the most on the US radio, I
    > have to admit that it seems to me that the money behind a product and
    > that product's image has a lot more to do with what is becoming popular
    > than the quality of the product.


    > I wish it were otherwise.


    When was it ever different? If the stuff matched your own taste would
    you feel differently? You dig those Fabian tracks? Hot for some leslie
    Gore? <g>

    --
    ha
  9. EggHd <egghd@aol.com> wrote:

    > << It doesn't so much help the little guy. >>


    > Right. It makes the radio game impossible in the traditional sense.


    Isn't it already, what with corporate consolidation of media, the slam
    visuals hand to mere audio, and the apparent lack of sales in response
    to airplay? The money thing doesn't seem any different to me. If the
    amounts tossed under the table are larger, so is the cost of everything
    else, and some of that "inflation" might derive from the forementioned
    consolidation.

    Just curious. You know anything about this sutff? <g>

    --
    hank alrich * secret mountain
    audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
    "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"
  10. Mondoslug1 <mondoslug1@aol.com> wrote:

    > I'm just here
    > to say that I firmly believe that radio can force feed a hit. Yeah there's
    > other factors but radio can do it.


    In isolated instances it may well have worked that way, but right now
    there is polenty of non-action in the sales park in response to airplay.
    Remember that one key point about radio trying to drive a song down an
    audience's throat: if it causes the listener to change stations, the
    game is over for the _station_. Ain't nobody running a station going to
    want to be remembered for that.

    --
    hank alrich * secret mountain
    audio recording * music production * sound reinforcement
    "If laughter is the best medicine let's take a double dose"
  11. Scott Dorsey

    Scott Dorsey Guest

    In article <bimnlb$b0t6j$1@ID-190397.news.uni-berlin.de>,
    Dave Martin <dmainc@earthlink.net> wrote:
    >
    >"Charles Thomas" <cthomas@REMOVE_SPAM_BLOCK.facstaff.wisc.edu> wrote in
    >message news:cthomas- an enviable list
    >
    >> A person doesn't have to have direct experience with a subject to know
    >> it exists. For example, I have never directly seen Iceland, but I have
    >> every reason to believe it exists based on the knowledgable reports of
    >> others.

    >
    >You bought into the "Iceland exists" story?


    Don't believe the legends. Any place where the reporters from the local
    AM station get issued a Nagra E and the hotels have AKG C747s on the podia
    in their conference rooms can't really exist.
    --scott

    --
    "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
  12. Wayne

    Wayne Guest

    Jay - atldigi <atldigi@aol.com> wrote:

    > As for being critical of EggHd, it's worth listening to what he says,
    > even if you don't like how he says it. There are some real pearls in
    > there that can help anybody trying to get ahead in this biz. He really
    > does know what he's talking about, and really does have the inside
    > experience that should make a person take what he says seriously. Sure,
    > nodody has all the answers, but he has more than most.


    My apologizes to egghd for any patronizing or condescending remarks on my part.

    It has been a while since I was involved with record promotion and that
    probably isn't going to change. By reading this thread, I have in fact updated
    my knowledge greatly and am appreciative to all those who are contributing.

    I would agree you can't buy a hit. Exposure would be the key element for me.
    It just appears to be almost impossible to get any type of airplay anymore.
    The play lists are like a closed shop. The local CCM station here won't play
    anything except whats on a chart they subscribe to. And stations like WAY-FM
    play a handful of songs and that's it. Very limited choices for the listener.

    >"I know enough to know I don't know enough" That about says it all for me.


    Wayne
  13. EggHd

    EggHd Guest

    << You dig those Fabian tracks? Hot for some leslie
    Gore? >>

    You got any videos of those 2 "together"?

    As an aside "It's My Party" is a well made record.




    ---------------------------------------
    "I know enough to know I don't know enough"
  14. EggHd

    EggHd Guest

    << My apologizes to egghd for any patronizing or condescending remarks on my
    part. >>

    Noe of us should take this stuff personally, especially when it's all about
    this kind of whacky shit.

    << It just appears to be almost impossible to get any type of airplay anymore.
    The play lists are like a closed shop. >>

    I know I keep saying this and people really don't want to believe it, but if
    the SR VP of promotion at Atlantic Records and the biggest Indie (well call him
    "jeff" LOL) go into any station with a record that the PD doesn't believe is
    right for their station, it ain't going on the air, at least until it is proven
    in other markets via phones and sales.

    On the other hand if it's a medium sized acts (last album did "OK"), the label
    may agree to play the stations anual summer or xmas show and foot the bill for
    the expenses of the band to do the show in exchange for airplay (payola?).

    The bad news is the staion will start playing the record a few weeks before the
    show as agreed and then if it isn't "working", drop it the day after.

    All sorts of fun!



    ---------------------------------------
    "I know enough to know I don't know enough"
  15. Gary Koliger

    Gary Koliger Guest

    EggHd wrote:

    > << You dig those Fabian tracks? Hot for some leslie
    > Gore? >>
    >
    > You got any videos of those 2 "together"?
    >
    > As an aside "It's My Party" is a well made record.


    which connected (and still does) with every teenage girl who heard it at
    the time

    I recall a thread here about the Sheryl Crow/Kid Rock duet a little
    while ago about which there was lot of dissing - similar situation -
    proof that you can't keep a song that people relate to down regardless
    of how out of tune a guitar or a vocal might be or how poor the
    production is - anyone here remember 96 tears by Question mark and the
    Mysterian? ah but that would be dating ourselvers big time wouldn't
    it?(-:

    Gary

    >
    >
    > ---------------------------------------
    > "I know enough to know I don't know enough"
  16. EggHd

    EggHd Guest

    << Somebody tell that to the local Dallas station 92.5 (KZPS), every third
    song they play is Boston. >>

    Classic stations don't get worked by record companies at all on catalog. They
    play what the believe their station wants. If their ratings go too low playing
    Boston all the time, the next thing you'l know, it'll be a smooth jazz station,

    << Not that
    I dislike Boston or think they suck or anything, I've just heard them 47
    times a day for the past 20 years, and don't care if I ever hear them again. >>

    Classic rock has pretty bad ratings these days



    ---------------------------------------
    "I know enough to know I don't know enough"
  17. Mondoslug1

    Mondoslug1 Guest

  18. Jay Kadis

    Jay Kadis Guest

    In article <20030829162639.19936.00000126@mb-m28.aol.com> egghd@aol.com (EggHd)
    writes:
    > << When there was Zeppelin and Hendrix and Mad Dogs and Englishmen and
    > Santana and Grand Funk and so on and so forth *also* available along side
    > the bubblegum pop bullshit. >>
    >
    > Yet Led Zepplin broke on POP radio with "Good Times Bad Times" Hendrex had a
    > POP hit with Foxy Lady, Joe Cocker was doing Beatles and Traffic covers, and
    > Grand Funk did The Locomotion and We're an American Band.
    >
    > The cool this was, as you say is that you also hear helen Ready John Denver
    > and Bo Donaldson and the Heywards on the same station.
    >
    > The fragmented formats of today really suck.
    >

    [snip]

    I'm not sure I agree about fragmentation. Never was there more of a golden age
    of rock radio than when FM stations (like KMPX and KSAN in SF) began playing
    album cuts by Jefferson Airplane and (the original) Fleetwood Mac as an
    alternative to the pop heard on AM radio. Fragmentation has been carried to
    its logical extreme, but some separation of musical interests is not in and of
    itself a bad thing. We just need some moderation of the extremes.

    On the other hand, I have come to better appreciate the Motown stuff that
    dominated the AM airwaves to the consternation of a Stones fan.

    -Jay
    --
    x------- Jay Kadis ------- x---- Jay's Attic Studio ----x
    x Lecturer, Audio Engineer x Dexter Records x
    x CCRMA, Stanford University x http://www.offbeats.com/ x
    x-------- http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/~jay/ ----------x
  19. ryanm

    ryanm Guest

    "LeBaron & Alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
    news:1g0fxpl.11xrozb17dob1qN%walkinay@thegrid.net...
    >
    > When was it ever different? If the stuff matched your own taste would
    > you feel differently? You dig those Fabian tracks? Hot for some leslie
    > Gore? <g>
    >

    When there was Zeppelin and Hendrix and Mad Dogs and Englishmen and
    Santana and Grand Funk and so on and so forth *also* available along side
    the bubblegum pop bullshit. There used to be a choice between homogenized
    pop music and music with merit beyond the fashion designer of the artist.
    But apparently the music with merit wasn't as profitable, so now we only get
    the pop.

    ryanm
  20. ryanm

    ryanm Guest

    "LeBaron & Alrich" <walkinay@thegrid.net> wrote in message
    news:1g0fy3a.1ycijzb1kbl5wuN%walkinay@thegrid.net...
    >
    > In isolated instances it may well have worked that way, but right now
    > there is polenty of non-action in the sales park in response to airplay.
    > Remember that one key point about radio trying to drive a song down an
    > audience's throat: if it causes the listener to change stations, the
    > game is over for the _station_. Ain't nobody running a station going to
    > want to be remembered for that.
    >

    Somebody tell that to the local Dallas station 92.5 (KZPS), every third
    song they play is Boston. Makes me change the station all the time. Not that
    I dislike Boston or think they suck or anything, I've just heard them 47
    times a day for the past 20 years, and don't care if I ever hear them again.

    ryanm

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